833 Rebuild - 2nd Gear Grinds Going Up and Bumps Out Decelerating

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Duggie

Duggie

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Can both these symptoms be a linkage adjustment?

I rebuilt my '64, 833 - 4 spd using Passon's book and Brewers's rebuild kit. I also replaced the cluster gear with a NOS, all new synchros, and all six synchro dogs. I followed the book, and confirmed good cluster gear endplay.

Now when shifting up from first to second, second grinds unless I double clutch. Shifting down from third to second is clean, but bumps out of second on hard deceleration. It didn't bump out before the rebuild. I can't be positive, as I didn't drive the car a lot before pulling the transmission, but I think that shifting into second from fist was a longer throw and felt more firm or secure in second. Just a different feeling now. I tried to keep the adjustment threads untouched when cleaning and reinstalling the rods. Thank goodness the rods were marked!

Can a rod adjustment cure both issues? How may turns at a time and which way? The factory Service Manual talks about using a specialty tool to set neutral, but nothing about troubleshooting issues.
 
Don't know what shifter you have. Hurst has an alignment hole (1/4"). Otherwise, looking at the shifter levers, they should be even across, just below the shifter body. Make sure that your trans. is not in any gear, and adjust the rod ends until they fit the shifter .Sounds like your not all the way into gear for the popping out, the grinding? Clutch adj. ?
 
Factory Hurst shifter.

I'll look for the 1/4" hole with all shift operating levers in neutral. What cause and effect fine tuning is available from there?

I set the free play in the clutch throw out bearing fork adjustment rod to 5/32". At least I think I did. It was curious that the clutch pedal free play was more like 2" than the expected 1" to 1 1/2". I'll look at the adjustment rod free play again. I am paranoid of letting the throw out bearing ride firm on the pressure plate.

Thanks for the input!
 
Get the spring on, it's going to change the adj. from where you thought that it should be. The Hurst should have the alignment hole. You can substitute a bolt for the pin tool you need.
 
Thanks, I'll look for the notch on the fork arm first thing in the morning.

I wondered too if I bought the right spring, this one having one hook close to the coils and one hook extended away from the coils. Seams like both hooks should be extended from the coils to have the soils not rub on anything. Maybe the proper spring placement will answer all this.
 
Not quite sure, but I thought that I read something when I did my '67 18 spline, about a year and a half ago, about being careful while doing a certain procedure, or it could lead to the same problems you are encountering. Syncro/dogs issue ?? A guy on here is a 833 guru, maybe tomorrow he will jump in, or I will try to get you his screen name. Clutch adj will not cause this. I always adjust that by feel. You can use a drill bit to adjust shifter.
 
CRUZE 418 said:
Get the spring on, it's going to change the adj. from where you thought that it should be. The Hurst should have the alignment hole. You can substitute a bolt for the pin tool you need.
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My first Dodge specialty tool. HA!
pin.JPG


The 1st/2nd gear rod was two turns too short. That cured the popping out of 2nd on deceleration. I still have to double clutch upshifting from 1st to 2nd, but not from 3rd to 2nd.

The reverse shift arm is 1/2" short to align up properly...

I think I found the throw out arm spring hole.
arm hole.JPG


I'm surprised the hole is so far inside the bell housing boot. Looks like the spring will cut though the boot in time.
spring.JPG
 
You may want to go to the early A bodies site. Your pics show that your linkage is quite different from my '69. Someone with a like car may be able you more. I agree that the spring angle doesn't look right. You should probably get a service manual and parts book for your car. They can be downloaded, I chose paper. They can be very helpful with other things that will come up down the road.
Was the clutch out of adj?
 
yellow rose said:
Why do you need to double clutch it?
Click to expand...

If I didn't double clutch , it ground shifting up from 1st to 2nd.

But wait - there's more! After the second drive around the block shifting up form 1st to 2nd is smooth. Took it out on the road and now downshifting from 4th to 3rd grinds, where it didn't before. Guess I'll check the linkage adjustments again, although I didn't change the 3- 4 linkage when I turned the 1 -2 arm out two turns.

694spd said:
That looks like an unusual clutch fork and adjusting linkage?
Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists
Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links! My adjustment arm looks like the second link, but my fork is different. The guys at Layson's thought my fork was wrong too until they opened the hood an another '64 \6 in their shop. Mine was the same. Their guess was the other fork was a V8 fork.

Up from 1st to 2nd being smooth after the second test drive is weird and now the grind from 4th to 3rd is ever weirder.
 
Maybe otta give brewer's or passion a call.
Above my pay grade without being there.
 
Duggie said:
If I didn't double clutch , it ground shifting up from 1st to 2nd.

But wait - there's more! After the second drive around the block shifting up form 1st to 2nd is smooth. Took it out on the road and now downshifting from 4th to 3rd grinds, where it didn't before. Guess I'll check the linkage adjustments again, although I didn't change the 3- 4 linkage when I turned the 1 -2 arm out two turns.



Thanks for the links! My adjustment arm looks like the second link, but my fork is different. The guys at Layson's thought my fork was wrong too until they opened the hood an another '64 \6 in their shop. Mine was the same. Their guess was the other fork was a V8 fork.

Up from 1st to 2nd being smooth after the second test drive is weird and now the grind from 4th to 3rd is ever weirder.
Click to expand...

IMO, if it’s grinding you could have one of several issues or some of them or all of them.

Number one for grinding in 1 gear is an incorrect linkage adjustment. Just getting the pin through all the holes doesn’t mean it’s correct. Sometimes you have to make the rod a bit longer to get the adjustment needed.

I never, ever use stops on any shifter. Ever. If you set the stops so the slider is all the way onto the clutching teeth, what the hell do the stops do? I’m getting ready to install a Hurst Ram Rod shifter on my junk, and I remover the stops.

If you have a disc with the marcel in it (a thin, wavy spring between both frictions) you need more plate departure to keep the clutch from dragging. IMO, unless it’s your Honda or some other junk, the disc should never have a marcel. If you have a marcel, increase your plate departure. Even if you don’t have a marcel, you may need to increase the plate departure. I don’t recall what pressure plate your using, and I don’t want to go back and look, but if it’s a Borg & Beck I always had the finger height raised .100 to make it easier to get more plate departure.

Junk syncros. I’ve had brand new syncros that were machined wrong that would grind. IIRC the taper was wrong so there never was enough of the syncro to grab the gear and slow it down.
 
yellow rose said:
IMO, if it’s grinding you could have one of several issues or some of them or all of them.

Number one for grinding in 1 gear is an incorrect linkage adjustment. Just getting the pin through all the holes doesn’t mean it’s correct. Sometimes you have to make the rod a bit longer to get the adjustment needed.

I never, ever use stops on any shifter. Ever. If you set the stops so the slider is all the way onto the clutching teeth, what the hell do the stops do? I’m getting ready to install a Hurst Ram Rod shifter on my junk, and I remover the stops.

If you have a disc with the marcel in it (a thin, wavy spring between both frictions) you need more plate departure to keep the clutch from dragging. IMO, unless it’s your Honda or some other junk, the disc should never have a marcel. If you have a marcel, increase your plate departure. Even if you don’t have a marcel, you may need to increase the plate departure. I don’t recall what pressure plate your using, and I don’t want to go back and look, but if it’s a Borg & Beck I always had the finger height raised .100 to make it easier to get more plate departure.

Junk syncros. I’ve had brand new syncros that were machined wrong that would grind. IIRC the taper was wrong so there never was enough of the syncro to grab the gear and slow it down.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed info. I've a couple newbie questions;

Are the shifter arms always lengthened when a shift grinds or do I experiment with one turn forward, two back until it shifts smooth?

The clutch is a Borg and Beck from Brewer's. I'm pretty sure it had a spring clip mounting the T O bearing to the fork, but not sure if there was anything between the two.

What kind shop does pressure plate finger height adjustments? My friendly machine shop?

I did use 180 emery cloth on each synchro mating surface and confirmed I couldn't turn the synchro under a hand pressed fit with my whimpey grip.

I'll make the rod adjustments when I get back under to replace some front end rubber and shocks, and report back.

Thanks again!!
 
Duggie said:
Thanks for the detailed info. I've a couple newbie questions;

Are the shifter arms always lengthened when a shift grinds or do I experiment with one turn forward, two back until it shifts smooth?

Usually you make the shift rod a touch longer, so the syncro gets all the way engaged with the gear to slow it down.

The clutch is a Borg and Beck from Brewer's. I'm pretty sure it had a spring clip mounting the T O bearing to the fork, but not sure if there was anything between the two.

I was talking about the clutch disc, and the thin, wave spring that is between the two frictions on the disc. So, if you grabbed your disc and looked at it 90 degrees from the way it fits in the car, you can see that little spring in between the two frictions. If you’re not sure it’s there or not, take your fingers and squeeze the disc together. If it compresses at all, there is that spring in there. If it doesn’t compress, it’s not there. If it is there, you’ll need more plate departure (I’m really meaning air gap between the disc and the flywheel...I learned that term (plate departure) in 1980 and I still use it, but it means the same thing as air gap.

What kind shop does pressure plate finger height adjustments? My friendly machine shop?

If you live in or near a big city, there should be some kind of specialty shop that just does friction stuff. Like clutches, brakes and junk like that. They usually have stuff for all kinds of vehicles, clear up to over the road trucks, earth moving junk and anything that uses brakes and/or clutches. They can easily raise the finger height .100 for you.


I did use 180 emery cloth on each synchro mating surface and confirmed I couldn't turn the synchro under a hand pressed fit with my whimpey grip.

Hopefully you didn’t take enough off the syncro to change the diameter. I doubt you did, but if you had the syncro in a lathe and spun it up...you could effectively change the ID of the syncro enough that it’s not getting a good grip on the gear.

I'll make the rod adjustments when I get back under to replace some front end rubber and shocks, and report back.

Thanks again!!
Click to expand...
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to educate me (and others following along).

Would love to by you a cup of coffee when I get to cruise that crooked mile in this little Dart.
 
yellow rose said:
Number one for grinding in 1 gear is an incorrect linkage adjustment. Just getting the pin through all the holes doesn’t mean it’s correct. Sometimes you have to make the rod a bit longer to get the adjustment needed.
Click to expand...

One more question, Yellow Rose. I'm getting closer to dialing in the shift linkage. 4th to 3rd still grinds 'just a little' after two turns out on the shift linkage. What happens when the shift linkage is adjusted too long?

Thanks in advance!
 
Duggie said:
One more question, Yellow Rose. I'm getting closer to dialing in the shift linkage. 4th to 3rd still grinds 'just a little' after two turns out on the shift linkage. What happens when the shift linkage is adjusted too long?

Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...


You’ll have issues with a “dirty” neutral...meaning when you move the shift lever left to right it’s not “clean”...it starts snagging on the gates of the shifter.

Ease into it. As long as neutral is clean enough that you can shift it without a bunch of effort you’re golden.
 
I’m using 90 wt gear oil in my A-833 and it grinds first to second until the oil warms up. So when you say after a trip around the block it shifts normally first to second, could just be the oil is too stiff.
 
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