Stop in for a cup of coffee

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Mopar Tim said:
The amperage that charges the battery sure as heck goes thru the amp meter. Why else have it....

And that is most of the load....
Click to expand...
It can be a high load.
But its only high for how long? And its not usually that high. Sometimes on my car I'll see it swing to 20 amps for a few seconds right after starting. Then its down to 10 amps and then 5 amps in a few minutes.

Only when I (the operator) has really screwed up and run the battery dead does the ammeter get abused. But so is the rest of the line.
When the ammeter is showing 20 plus amps (charging) I'm equally concerned about the whole circuit, the alternator and the battery.

TJ and I have discussed this because we've both had to do it - but driving a car with a battery that low is a bad idea.
Rate of charge is one thing an ammeter will show that a voltmeter can not.
Knowing I'm occassionally prone to doing dumb things, its nice to be able to monitor the charge to try to keep from blowing the battery up or melting a connector.

A voltmeter shows whether the alternator or battery is providing power to the dash circuit.
The operator can only assume that if the voltage indicates the alternator is working, then the battery is getting properly charged.
Thats why I say one is not better than the other. They show different things.

So back to most of the load.
Well the typical load running is about 5 amps.
FWIW Using a clamp meter on my wagoneer's alternator output, I made these measurements.
upload_2020-1-31_18-53-0-png.png


The Wag has pretty much the same amount of lights and equipment as any '70 up mopar. Didn't measure the wiper load, but point is none of this goes through the ammeter.
The power wiring is a little more complex because it has a GM SI alternator, but its still a old school setup with the ammeter in the battery line.
However that setup is one reason I would prefer a PTO over an electric winch if I was off roading it. Of course that's not an option for a luxery era grand wagoneers..
 
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Mattax said:
It can be a high load.
But its only high for how long? And its not usually that high. Sometimes on my car I'll see it swing to 20 amps for a few seconds right after starting. Then its down to 10 amps and then 5 amps in a few minutes.

Only when I (the operator) has really screwed up and run the battery dead does the ammeter get abused. But so is the rest of the line.
When the ammeter is showing 20 plus amps (charging) I'm equally concerned about the whole circuit, the alternator and the battery.

TJ and I have discussed this because we've both had to do it - but driving a car with a battery that low is a bad idea.
Rate of charge is one thing an ammeter will show that a voltmeter can not.
Knowing I'm occassionally prone to doing dumb things, its nice to be able to monitor the charge to try to keep from blowing the battery up or melting a connector.

A voltmeter shows whether the alternator or battery is providing power to the dash circuit.
The operator can only assume that if the voltage indicates the alternator is working, then the battery is getting properly charged.
Thats why I say one is not better than the other. They show different things.

So back to most of the load.
Well the typical load running is about 5 amps.
FWIW Using a clamp meter on my wagoneer's alternator output, I made these measurements.
View attachment 1715786040

The Wag has pretty much the same amount of lights and equipment as any '70 up mopar. Didn't measure the wiper load, but point is none of this goes through the ammeter.
The power wiring is a little more complex because it has a GM SI alternator, but its still a old school setup with the ammeter in the battery line.
However that setup is one reason I would prefer a PTO over an electric winch if I was off roading it. Of course that's not an option for a luxery era grand wagoneers..
Click to expand...
With a low output factory alt, with NO extra loads, like a stereo, different headlight, fine. The factory setup is sufficient. I have had several Mopars with no electrical modifications at all that worked just fine. Dim lights at idle, flashers not flashing, BUT it all worked...As soon as you up the ALT output, to get your lights to work at idle, is when the Gauge issue arises. To many amps going thru the wiring.. My observations...
 
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Mopar Tim said:
The amperage that charges the battery sure as heck goes thru the amp meter. Why else have it....

And that is most of the load....
Click to expand...
Throw a shitty battery in, boost it to get it running and its just itching to release the magic smoke!!
My 80 power wagon was used pretty hard, massive battery and a snow plow.and winch. Ammeter wasnt cooked but wires were getting crispy.
 
Heck I had headlights go out on the interstate. '75 valiant 4 door.
That was interesting...
At least the breaker was working.

I think every car needs to be evaluated on what conditions are found/observed.
All of the damage from that recharging stunt I pulled were in the bulkhead terminals. The alternator output terminal had melted off most most of its dust/moisture seal. That was the worst. Of course that alternator failed a year later - one of the stator winding wires broke right where they join. Was that in part from maxing it out for 20 minutes? Maybe.
Have I added a parallel altenrator line? Yes I have. It goes a terminal on the firewall and then to the ammeter.

I think Chris ought to do a post mortum on the fuel line and then examine the damaged wires.
Whether he ought to repair the factory wiring, or just buy a new engine harness, I don't know. really depends on how much time/money effort he wants ot put into learning to make nice crimps and rewrapping the harness.
If I was going to make changes, it might be to add a fusible link. I don't recall if the '64 has a ring terminal at the firewall or a Packard type push terminal. But we've seen both types damaged. I suspect the ring terminal while capable of more current is also exposed to more weathering and oxidation. Dunno.
 
Tooljunkie said:
My 80 power wagon was used pretty hard, massive battery and a snow plow.and winch. Ammeter wasnt cooked but wires were getting crispy.
Click to expand...
That type of use is hard on wiring, batteries, everything!
 
Took the scenic route home from O'side today. I went hunting El mirage Dry Lake. It was done on a whim and I had no idea the exact route to take. All in all I got very close to it. Next time I'll know :steering:
 
Mattax said:
Heck I had headlights go out on the interstate. '75 valiant 4 door.
That was interesting...
At least the breaker was working.

I think every car needs to be evaluated on what conditions are found/observed.
All of the damage from that recharging stunt I pulled were in the bulkhead terminals. The alternator output terminal had melted off most most of its dust/moisture seal. That was the worst. Of course that alternator failed a year later - one of the stator winding wires broke right where they join. Was that in part from maxing it out for 20 minutes? Maybe.
Have I added a parallel altenrator line? Yes I have. It goes a terminal on the firewall and then to the ammeter.

I think Chris ought to do a post mortum on the fuel line and then examine the damaged wires.
Whether he ought to repair the factory wiring, or just buy a new engine harness, I don't know. really depends on how much time/money effort he wants ot put into learning to make nice crimps and rewrapping the harness.
If I was going to make changes, it might be to add a fusible link. I don't recall if the '64 has a ring terminal at the firewall or a Packard type push terminal. But we've seen both types damaged. I suspect the ring terminal while capable of more current is also exposed to more weathering and oxidation. Dunno.
Click to expand...
Agree. His wiring might be repairable...
 
High load circuits, i prefer to crimp and solder the terminals. Same for ground circuits. After installing too many hundreds of remote starters you learn what the failure points are. Cheap fuse holders,and shitty crimps.
The box of assorted chinese terminals is not the way to go,buying quality (domestic or name brand) will at least give you a fighting chance. Most of my Fargo is wired with bullet terminals,and not the cheap tin ones.
 
Many years ago a friend had a 68 charger, another guy offered to wire in a stereo, smoked the wiring from fusebox to headlight switch. Was a mess.
Had a similar one with a kenworth,dash harness burned. 70 some-odd wires to replace.
It was a metal clip in the dash that rubbed through. Wiring harness sat on it,in its proper retainers. That one was a mess.
 
Mattax said:
Let see 'em.
I've seen more guys on this forum and IFSJA screwing themselves attempting to make this 'improvement' than actual ammeter failures that caused fires. Seen a few blame the ammeter, but with either no evidence shown or evidence to the contrary.
In fact, it got so bad at IFSJA I made a list of guys from just a few threads there which got caught in this chicken little scenario. I reposted that here a while back.
Bottom line is:
A. When there is a problem indicated by the ammeter, it needs to be dealt with.
B. Most home mechanics do not invest the time and money to produce wiring and connections that are equal to the factory connections. They're also unaware of the importance of wire support and strain relief.

IMO Anyone who beleives all of the car's power goes through the ammeter does not know enough about the system to be modifying it.
Drive in a vehicle with an ammeter and look at it now then and you will see that's not true.

Chris. You do what you want.
Click to expand...
I’d like to keep it factory, I don’t ever leave my battery hooked up anyway and will be installed a remote kill switch on both cars regardless.

Besides making my own harness, any idea where I could get a new factory style harness with factory connections?
 
Mattax said:
It can be a high load.
But its only high for how long? And its not usually that high. Sometimes on my car I'll see it swing to 20 amps for a few seconds right after starting. Then its down to 10 amps and then 5 amps in a few minutes.

Only when I (the operator) has really screwed up and run the battery dead does the ammeter get abused. But so is the rest of the line.
When the ammeter is showing 20 plus amps (charging) I'm equally concerned about the whole circuit, the alternator and the battery.

TJ and I have discussed this because we've both had to do it - but driving a car with a battery that low is a bad idea.
Rate of charge is one thing an ammeter will show that a voltmeter can not.
Knowing I'm occassionally prone to doing dumb things, its nice to be able to monitor the charge to try to keep from blowing the battery up or melting a connector.

A voltmeter shows whether the alternator or battery is providing power to the dash circuit.
The operator can only assume that if the voltage indicates the alternator is working, then the battery is getting properly charged.
Thats why I say one is not better than the other. They show different things.

So back to most of the load.
Well the typical load running is about 5 amps.
FWIW Using a clamp meter on my wagoneer's alternator output, I made these measurements.
View attachment 1715786040

The Wag has pretty much the same amount of lights and equipment as any '70 up mopar. Didn't measure the wiper load, but point is none of this goes through the ammeter.
The power wiring is a little more complex because it has a GM SI alternator, but its still a old school setup with the ammeter in the battery line.
However that setup is one reason I would prefer a PTO over an electric winch if I was off roading it. Of course that's not an option for a luxery era grand wagoneers..
Click to expand...
How much do you want to wire my dart haha! I’ll trailer it to you
 
dukeboy_318 said:
I’d like to keep it factory, I don’t ever leave my battery hooked up anyway and will be installed a remote kill switch on both cars regardless.

Besides making my own harness, any idea where I could get a new factory style harness with factory connections?
Click to expand...
The first sounds like a problem. A manual disconnect is fine. That's just for security.

M & H makes engine harness for Year One. If Year One lists it, M & H made it for them.
Why not first see what is damaged. Sure you can haul it here.
Seriously. See waht was damaged. Unwrap the harness. The wire that may be best to scrounge from a good used harnes sor possibly get M&H or Evans to recreate is the one from the alternator. The ring terminal has molded rubber seal over the crimp. I don't know how that was done. At the firewall, there probably is another molded seal.

Anyway you need to see and feel what the damage is. On my car that end of the harness is horn wire, horn power, alternator output, field wire, and temperature sensor. 5 wires. 4 are pretty easy to replicate and 1 of which is more difficult. Your car, I don't know.
 
Mattax said:
The first sounds like a problem. A manual disconnect is fine. That's just for security.

M & H makes engine harness for Year One. If Year One lists it, M & H made it for them.
Why not first see what is damaged. Sure you can haul it here.
Seriously. See waht was damaged. Unwrap the harness. The wire that may be best to scrounge from a good used harnes sor possibly get M&H or Evans to recreate is the one from the alternator. The ring terminal has molded rubber seal over the crimp. I don't know how that was done. At the firewall, there probably is another molded seal.

Anyway you need to see and feel what the damage is. On my car that end of the harness is horn wire, horn power, alternator output, field wire, and temperature sensor. 5 wires. 4 are pretty easy to replicate and 1 of which is more difficult. Your car, I don't know.
Click to expand...

I guess I didn’t post it, I thought I did.

wires completely toast:
Alternator all the way back to the firewall
Horns all the way to the horn relay.
the ammeter wire all the way to the bulk head.
The ammeter wires under the dash(I’m guessing when the fire happened, it grounded something and juiced it?)
Headlight harness on passenger side.
Coil positive wire.
Water temperature wire
Oil temp wire
The blue wires on the ballast resistor mounted on the firewall
Voltage regulator itself melted.

not counting the rest of the damage:
Fuel pump,
Alternator
Plug wires
Upper radiator hose
Belt.
Washer bottle
Horns
Valve covers
fuel lines
 
Yet after all the discussion i did wire in the original ammeter in the Fargo. It was in great shape so i figured why not.
 
Good Morning everyone. My comment about ammeters causing fires - mostly due to old wires, years of changes, loose dirty connections, larger alternator outputs with no upgrades, etc. Anyway, like I mentioned elsewhere yesterday, could be wrong - usually am.
 
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