Borgeson steering chuck....reports on steering feel versus stock P/S.

[Kern Dog]

I'm looking for reports from members that have installed one and have driven their cars. How many turns lock to lock? How does it feel in terms of on center steering response?
I've read about the reduced size and weight and the improved clearance for headers but I'd appreciate some comments about how the steering feel is as compared to the stock power steering. I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. There is still that dead area where the steering wheel moves before the linkage and tires do. I have other old cars with stock type setups and the dead spot is not as noticeable with the high boost and easy steering effort. The higher effort really highlights the dead spot. Once I get past the slop, the steering feels great ....
I drive a Ram 1500 with rack and pinion and even with 380,000 miles, it still is tight and responsive. I do understand that these stock steering units do have their limitations.
Thanks!

 

[Super-Cuda]

I'm looking for reports from members that have installed one and have driven their cars. How many turns lock to lock? How does it feel in terms of on center steering response?
I've read about the reduced size and weight and the improved clearance for headers but I'd appreciate some comments about how the steering feel is as compared to the stock power steering. I have a Firm Feel Stage 3 chuck with Fast Ratio Idler and Pitman arms. There is still that dead area where the steering wheel moves before the linkage and tires do. I have other old cars with stock type setups and the dead spot is not as noticeable with the high boost and easy steering effort. The higher effort really highlights the dead spot. Once I get past the slop, the steering feels great ....
I drive a Ram 1500 with rack and pinion and even with 380,000 miles, it still is tight and responsive. I do understand that these stock steering units do have their limitations.
Thanks!

 

[Kern Dog]

It seems that everyone that I know of that has installed the Borgeson has replaced a standard Mopar unit that was worn out or leaking. So far, I don't recall hearing from anyone that pulled a functioning Firm Feel or Steer and Gear chuck with high effort.
I do drive the car in a spirited manner. I love turning corners, freeway on and off ramps, curvy roads, etc. The transition between straight ahead and entering turns really sucks when there is the slop and delay.

 

[dano]

There is still that dead area where the steering wheel moves before the linkage and tires do.

What do you have for a coupler between the box and column? I have a Firm Feel 3 and Flaming River u-joint (and Column with slider) and no slop with a 900 psi Saginaw Pump. My dad has a Firm Feel 1 and stock Saginaw pump on a 66 Coronet and he had the center play slop and it turns out his stock coupler, even though he rebuilt it with new shoes, still had slop. He shimmed it until it was gone but could still slide.

 

[Kern Dog]

I also have a stock coupler and did consider the possibility that it was a factor. I see the coupler and steering box input shaft turning a fair amount before seeing the pitman arm start to move. I’ll check again to feel more confident about it but it seems that this unit is worn beyond my satisfaction.

 

[DionR]

What do you have for a coupler between the box and column? I have a Firm Feel 3 and Flaming River u-joint (and Column with slider) and no slop with a 900 psi Saginaw Pump. My dad has a Firm Feel 1 and stock Saginaw pump on a 66 Coronet and he had the center play slop and it turns out his stock coupler, even though he rebuilt it with new shoes, still had slop. He shimmed it until it was gone but could still slide.

I have seen comments that the shoes can be installed in the coupler 90 degrees out which will introduce slop. Kind of wonder if that is why your Dad's coupler still had slop.

I know when I put mine together for my Borgeson swap I could see how someone would think they only go in one way. They were tight going in the right way and sloppy when done wrong.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Before I got involved with Borgeson in 2012, I had stage 2 and 3 firm feels and one from steer and gear. I'll list my experiences:

1. Borgeson effort between stage 2 and 3 firm feel. This can be "tuned" somewhat by
A. Changing the diameter of the wheel. I feel 13.5" is ideal. This is from experience, not guessing
B. Although the Borgeson sweet spot is 1200psi, it can tolerate lower for heavier feel.
2. Borgeson ratio is 14:1 vs. 15.7. However, they are both 3.5 turns. The Borgeson turns a little more. This isn't something you really notice.Its the stops on the lower bj that limit turning.
3. Borgeson tracks better. If we subtract any argument regarding the "health" of the steering linkage, tires,etc, the new box requires less correction going down the road.
4. Borgeson box reacts instantly. This is very noticeable in a good way. The ability to come off center makes a huge difference in your confidence level when driving at speed.
5. Borgeson is made from much fewer parts/more modern construction, which mean fewer leaks. Leaks are a rare occurance once Borgeson stopped welding brackets to the housing and created a one piece casting.

 

[Super-Cuda]

Big shout out to Bergman Auto Craft for taking the time to comment and educate the members on this site!

Nice to see they are following the hobby and in particular, the A-Body members and potential customers we have here.

You know the service and products will be excellent if they take time out to help and comment as I'm sure they are just as busy as everyone else.

Cheers!!

 

[DionR]

Big shout out to Bergman Auto Craft for taking the time to comment and educate the members on this site!

Nice to see they are following the hobby and in particular, the A-Body members and potential customers we have here.

You know the service and products will be excellent if they take time out to help and comment as I'm sure they are just as busy as everyone else.

Cheers!!

I've got nothing but good to say about my purchases from Peter and the follow up support so far.

5 star!

 

[dano]

I have seen comments that the shoes can be installed in the coupler 90 degrees out which will introduce slop. Kind of wonder if that is why your Dad's coupler still had slop.

I know when I put mine together for my Borgeson swap I could see how someone would think they only go in one way. They were tight going in the right way and sloppy when done wrong.

That's a good point and I'm not sure how he put it together. Thanks, I'll mention it to him.

 

[DionR]

That's a good point and I'm not sure how he put it together. Thanks, I'll mention it to him.

To be fair, when I say “I see comments…”, what I mean is I’ve read Peter’s instructions for his modified coupler and I’ve seen him point it out multiple time. The credit for that info really goes to him.

 

[jcolman]

My car has the Borgeson PS installed using their U joint connector. I didn't have the stock PS (since my car was a manual) but I can tell you that there is absolutly no "play" in my steering anymore. I also installed a power reduction valve to bring the pump pressure down so my steering doesn't feel too light.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Borgeson boxes operate at higher pressure than original boxes. 1200 psi is optimal. No need to attempt to reduce the relief pressures.

 

[jcolman]

Borgeson boxes operate at higher pressure than original boxes. 1200 psi is optimal. No need to attempt to reduce the relief pressures.

While that may be true Peter, what I’m going for is a power steering feel that is in between manual and full power steering. My front end is pretty light.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

While that may be true Peter, what I’m going for is a power steering feel that is in between manual and full power steering. My front end is pretty light.

Understand. However, the boxes provide the feel I described above using the correct pressure. These are by no means “light” at any pressure.

 

[jcolman]

Understand. However, the boxes provide the feel I described above using the correct pressure. These are by no means “light” at any pressure.

I'll give my setup a few hundred miles and then decide if I want to take the pressure valve off and try the "normal" setting.

 

[Kern Dog]

I just ordered the whole kit from Bergman Auto Craft. Small sector kit with the hybrid coupler and hose adapters. This stuff will be going into THIS car:

I am quite anxious to drive the car with a tight steering box.
I used to have a '76 Camaro with some upgrades....

That car had the bigger sway bars from a Trans Am, HD coil springs and an IROC 12.7 to 1 steering box. Say what you want about GM products but that car flat out handled great. The steering response was fantastic. I was really hoping to make the Charger equal to or better than the Camaro but I've always been disappointed by the Firm Feel steering box. This is no fault on the company. They surely did the best that they could with this design.
For contrast.....
My '67 Dart has the stock power steering which as you know, is almost effortless. It works perfectly for street use and the off road trails I drive it on. I wouldn't change anything about it. Turning on dirt can feel like turning on ice or mud so an easy effort steering gear is just fine.
For the Charger, the higher effort magnified the feeling of the slop. This has been an eye opener for me. I thought the higher effort would be great. If there were no steering box options, I'd consider switching back to a milder Stage 2 box with stock Idler and Pitman arms to mask some of the slop.
I have a 72 Duster, the aforementioned 67 Dart and another 70 Charger, all with power steering. The "Jigsaw" Charger has Fast Ratio arms. All are factory original steering boxes, none leak so they are staying in place. All feel pretty good on the road.