Z-bar not aligned properly

[charliec]

After installing the newly rebuilt z-bar, I find that the two ball studs are not aligned with each other.

They are not on the same front-to-rear line. It looks like the bell housing side is too far forward or the frame side is too far back.
Since this car was probably converted to 4-speed by a PO, I suspect that the hole for the frame side ball studs was not drilled in exactly the right place, hence the misalignment. That end will certainly be easier to correct than the other end; maybe the only way to correct it since the whole drive train ain't gonna shift to accommodate.

 

[72bluNblu]

The chances of every z-bar being perfectly in line from the factory is zero. The tightest tolerances on the chassis are the suspension points, even those were +/- an 1/8” and I doubt they were all in spec. Scratch that, I know they weren’t.

The ball studs actually allow for misalignment. If the clutch and pedal operate properly this isn’t an issue.

Also, that hole was sometimes drilled on automatic equipped cars. My ‘71 GT has a rubber plug there, it’s an auto with a console. If it was undrilled it would have a dimple in the inner fender to locate the hole. There’s a thread here somewhere with information on the hole for the ball stud. I forget exactly the conclusion but I believe it mostly determined the factory did all kinds of stuff and wasn’t nearly as particular as most purists suggest.

 

[dano]

What year are we dealing with? The bellhousing mounted ball bracket changed in 72-up.

 

[Murray]

The fender side mounting should have a locating hole with a reinforcing brace welded in. Does yours?

 

[72bluNblu]

Here’s a few pictures of the bracket on the other side

This last one has the correct bracket, but it's mounted incorrectly, using one of the mounting holes for the ball stud.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That's why they designed them with a ball and socket joint at each end. The engineers knew they'd likely never be in perfect alignment, plus they needed to move, so as to take up any vibration from the engine to the frame. As long as the clutch disengages and engages smoothly, don't sweat it.

 

[charliec]

The car is a '68 Dart, 340. I figure it was a conversion because there was NO reinforcing bracket on it all when I bought the car. It could be that the factory left it off, but I doubt it. Whoever did it simply drilled a hole in the sheet metal and stuck a stud through it, with a predictable result.

I later installed the bracket that was supposed to be there all along. However, I didn't know about the misalignment at the time, so I installed the bracket to line up with the hole that was already there. If it was drilled in the wrong place, I welded it in place. I could grind it out and try to relocate it, but as others have said, it's probably not worth the trouble.

This is the ball stud that I removed showing the result of severe misalignment and poor installation/maintenance. I'm just trying to prevent a similar occurrence.

 

[RustyRatRod]

As close as it is now, I think it's fine.

 

[dano]

Given its been converted then do through everything and be sure its correct. As I stated, the Bell side ball pivot changed. Throw out arms come in different lengths as do the height of the pivot so you could have a complete mismatch of parts.

And as stated there will be some out of alignment look do to many factors, just be sure it greased well when its all sorted.

Where was the cut on the fender side pivot ball when it was installed?

 

[Dartswinger70]

What year are we dealing with? The bellhousing mounted ball bracket changed in 72-up.

I was thinking "parts mismatch maybe?" however like said if it works run it...

 

[dano]

I was thinking "parts mismatch maybe?" however like said if it works run it...

While I typically agree, what I discovered was the mismatch of parts doesn't play well with tight headers like Doug's. If all stock it maybe fine, the PO is going to have to install it all and find out.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

The hole in the fender well is pre drilled on every carthere is usually a rubber plug in the hole. But the brace on the fender well is only welded in on manual shift cars.

To me it looks like you have a 68-71 bell housing bracket with ball on a 1972-1976 bell housing. That would cause the problem you are having.

68-71 Bracket

72 -76 bracket

You need to determine what year bell housing you have. The cars fender well holes are all pre drilled at the same location

 

[charliec]

Given its been converted then do through everything and be sure its correct. As I stated, the Bell side ball pivot changed. Throw out arms come in different lengths as do the height of the pivot so you could have a complete mismatch of parts.

And as stated there will be some out of alignment look do to many factors, just be sure it greased well when its all sorted.

Where was the cut on the fender side pivot ball when it was installed?

That groove in the old ball stud was from wearing on the end of the z-bar tube. It was that worn out, out of line and wobbly!

 

[charliec]

The hole in the fender well is pre drilled on every carthere is usually a rubber plug in the hole. But the brace on the fender well is only welded in on manual shift cars.

To me it looks like you have a 68-71 bell housing bracket with ball on a 1972-1976 bell housing. That would cause the problem you are having.

68-71 Bracket
View attachment 1716358780
72 -76 bracket
View attachment 1716358781

You need to determine what year bell housing you have. The cars fender well holes are all pre drilled at the same location

I definately have the '68 ball stud bracket as shown in your post. I really don't know for sure what year the bell housing is. It came with the engine in the car. The VIN on the engine matches the transmission and the dash, so I doubt that it was ever changed for something different.

 

[charliec]

While I typically agree, what I discovered was the mismatch of parts doesn't play well with tight headers like Doug's. If all stock it maybe fine, the PO is going to have to install it all and find out.

It will have stock High Performance exhaust manifolds and exhaust pipes. I threw away a pair of trashed Hookers that was on it when I bought it.

 

[charliec]

Given its been converted then do through everything and be sure its correct. As I stated, the Bell side ball pivot changed. Throw out arms come in different lengths as do the height of the pivot so you could have a complete mismatch of parts.

And as stated there will be some out of alignment look do to many factors, just be sure it greased well when its all sorted.

Where was the cut on the fender side pivot ball when it was installed?

...as far as mismatched parts...The bell side pivot ball is the one that was on the car when I got it, and it matches the one that Oldmanmopar identified above as the correct '68 part. The Z-bar itself is new, purchased from Laysons, and it matches exactly the old part (minus the wear). The keeper spring, seals, plastic bushing/bearings came in a kit from Year One in Mopar bags and they all fit perfectly. The fender side ball stud matches the size of the old one.

I will have to accept the little bit of misalignment for a while since it'll be some time before the whole thing is operational so that it can be actually tested.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I will have to accept the little bit of misalignment for a while since it'll be some time before the whole thing is operational so that it can be actually tested.

you could loosen the mounts and see if you can get an 1/8 or 1/4 out of it but probably not.

ALSO...

the engine moves around under acceleration/deceleration, so it will be out / in alignment at some point in its usage.

 

[dano]

I definately have the '68 ball stud bracket as shown in your post. I really don't know for sure what year the bell housing is. It came with the engine in the car. The VIN on the engine matches the transmission and the dash, so I doubt that it was ever changed for something different.

You said the car was converted to a 4 speed by a previous owner and didn't have the inner fender brace but the engine, trans and dash vin match? Does the dash vin match the body vin? This can't be a manual trans car unless the inner fender brace was removed at some point.

 

[charliec]

You said the car was converted to a 4 speed by a previous owner and didn't have the inner fender brace but the engine, trans and dash vin match? Does the dash vin match the body vin? This can't be a manual trans car unless the inner fender brace was removed at some point.

I understand. But this is something of a mystery car. I really suspect that it was "cloned to GTS" status sometime in the past. It was badged as a GTS and had some characteristics (engine, trans, VIN, etc.). However, the trunk rail number and the core support number don't match. The rear spring mounts were small diameter bolts; not heavy duty as should be with a true GTS car. It did not have torque boxes. None of that is absolutely conclusive, as we know that Mopar sent things off the assembly line in a number of different configurations for whatever reason. But, the real killer is that the fender tag was in place, but it de-codes as a CHARGER. So obviously, someone was scamming somebody (me) when it was sold as a GTS. With no tag, there's no way to know exactly how it left the factory.

The steering column is smooth; no remnant of a gear shift.

The mismatch of numbers between the trunk rail and the core support suggests that maybe the car was pieced together from two cars, one of which had been rear-ended. If you took the goodies from a wrecked GTS and transferred them into a standard Dart, you could end up with the aberation that I own.

I only paid $4,500 for a running 340 4 speed car so I'm still good. I only wish I had a better understanding of the pedigree. I'm building it back as a GTS should be, but I won't try to pass it off to a future buyer as anything other than what it is.

 

[dano]

I understand. But this is something of a mystery car. I really suspect that it was "cloned to GTS" status sometime in the past. It was badged as a GTS and had some characteristics (engine, trans, VIN, etc.). However, the trunk rail number and the core support number don't match. The rear spring mounts were small diameter bolts; not heavy duty as should be with a true GTS car. It did not have torque boxes. None of that is absolutely conclusive, as we know that Mopar sent things off the assembly line in a number of different configurations for whatever reason. But, the real killer is that the fender tag was in place, but it de-codes as a CHARGER. So obviously, someone was scamming somebody (me) when it was sold as a GTS. With no tag, there's no way to know exactly how it left the factory.

The steering column is smooth; no remnant of a gear shift.

The mismatch of numbers between the trunk rail and the core support suggests that maybe the car was pieced together from two cars, one of which had been rear-ended. If you took the goodies from a wrecked GTS and transferred them into a standard Dart, you could end up with the aberation that I own.

I only paid $4,500 for a running 340 4 speed car so I'm still good. I only wish I had a better understanding of the pedigree. I'm building it back as a GTS should be, but I won't try to pass it off to a future buyer as anything other than what it is.

Sounds somewhat like my car. Someone's rigged together basket case. I don't have my fender tag but I still built the car. Have fun, there is always surprises, like over the weekend I found a previous owner replace all the rear light sockets by stripping the wires and wrapping them together and taping them.....good times.

 

[j par]

The chances of every z-bar being perfectly in line from the factory is zero. The tightest tolerances on the chassis are the suspension points, even those were +/- an 1/8” and I doubt they were all in spec. Scratch that, I know they weren’t.

The ball studs actually allow for misalignment. If the clutch and pedal operate properly this isn’t an issue.

Also, that hole was sometimes drilled on automatic equipped cars. My ‘71 GT has a rubber plug there, it’s an auto with a console. If it was undrilled it would have a dimple in the inner fender to locate the hole. There’s a thread here somewhere with information on the hole for the ball stud. I forget exactly the conclusion but I believe it mostly determined the factory did all kinds of stuff and wasn’t nearly as particular as most purists suggest.

LOL... I was born and raised as a young kid in michigan, and most of my family worked at the plants, and they were coveted jobs, not easy to get almost had to know somebody...
Trust me they weren't hiring rocket scientists to put the nuts and bolts together.... and any rocket scientist that was working there knew enough to make assembling for easy for non rocket scientist, meaning, lots of tolerance...

 

[j par]

My mom worked at Fisher body. My stingray was covered in cutlass supreme emblems...

 

[Dana67Dart]

I'm building it back as a GTS should be, but I won't try to pass it off to a future buyer as anything other than what it is.

have you checked the GTS registry? if the Vin was ever registered there it might get you some history

 

[charliec]

have you checked the GTS registry? if the Vin was ever registered there it might get you some history

Yeah, it's there. I put it in the registry right after I bought it many years ago. So the only history the registry has is what I gave them. I've pretty much run out of leads on tracking down its true history.

 

[Hyper_pak]

Here is my fender bracket, I have some work to do.

As far as the numbers/tag deal, I am sure you will be honest.
The person who gets it from you at some point........who knows.
That's how completely bogus cars end up at barrett jackson.