DOES THE HDK SUSPENSION K-MEMBER HANDLE BETTER THAN A T-BAR SUSPENSION?

[Super-Cuda]

Somehow I drug myself back into this thread but only skimmed through it. Ya'll have been busy. I wish I got paid for thread interaction so I could afford to buy another HDK. LOL just kidding, calm down. I have a few new comments.
I know the taxi has been used for reference many times about how it beat BMWs. I never actually paid attention or watched the video. Now that I have some autocross laps under my belt, I've learned that some courses cater to high HP cars while others cater to the more nimble small cars. So as this topic was brought up again, I immediately wonder what engine it had so I watched the video. Then the "pro" driver even commented on the power. What would make him make such a statement if HP and Torque don't matter? So where's the proof that HP and torque make a difference on an autocross? Here's my proof. There's nearly 5 years of results from my local SCCA where I would be say within the top 10-15 on a HP course, then on the more technical without long straights or quick acceleration sections where I'm usually around 20th position. Clearly those saying HP and Torque doesn't matter on an autocross either doesn't autocross at all, or regularly to learn this. Another piece of proof, and likely more relevant. Justin Peachy is an incredible driver winning or at least on the podium of nearly every autocross he does. He's been running a corvette with a 700HPish LS all year. He hurt the motor so he threw in a 5.3 to run the King of the Mountain race this past weekend. He finished 16th in his class and didn't qualify for the shootout. He was mentioning not enough HP all weekend on his social media. HP and Torque 100% matters on the autocross.

As far as pointing out where a coil over car beat a T-bar car... David Kruk with a QA1 setup on a 70 Superbee had the fastest autocross time at Moparty last year. Followed by two torsion bar cars, then me in 4th. There were 16 cars in the vintage class. I was .7 seconds from the second place car who was running 295s square A052s (top tier 200TW tires for those that don't know). I had a 235 Falken tire (likely about #4 200TW tire out there) on the front at that time. Moparty is in 2 weeks. Lots of people have made changes to their cars, including myself, so it's going to be fun to see how the chips fall this year. I'm not going there with the attitude that I'm going to win, but I am going with the attitude to have a ton of fun and hang out with my friends regardless of what suspension they run. I'll be driving the car hard and pushing it as far as my driving capability allows. Whoever is coming, bring a helmet and jump in for a ride. I don't care if you based me or my car, you will be impressed.

I know now that I've provided some real world data, ya'll will say the driver makes a difference now. Carry on...

Thanks very much for your input . Greatly appreciated!

 

[racerjoe]

Did they ever post results from last year? I have looked and can't find them beyond the top winners. I figured because of the rain, they just gave up on finishing well and never went back and posted results.

And David stepped up his car a bunch with a full SpeedTech setup with 315/30R18's.



Best attitude to have.

It's a shame if you feel anyone has bashed your car. I don't remember anyone doing so, but I understand the feeling.

Moparty results for the last 4 years --> Event Results

And actually HP cars do better on the longer course, unless the short course has a bunch of sections where you can floor it out of a turn. Enough of those and you can absolutely make up a second. Everyone knows miatas are great autocross cars, but to be fast, you have to use the momentum out of turns. That takes a lot of practice. You don't need practice when you have 400HP at your foot to carry you out of the turn.

 

[TT5.9mag]

My HemiDuster and Tim's HemiDuster are as close a comparison of a torsion bar vs Coil over suspension as you can get. Time does have wider Bridgestone RE71s, the standard measure of all autocross tires. The BIGGEST difference between our cars is NOT the car, but the driver. Tim has more autocross experience than me, though in the past year I have gotten much more comfortable as I've finally dialed in my car.

So yeah, bring a helmet, ride with us and have some fun!

View attachment 1716447693

You guys should switch seats!

 

[racerjoe]

You are literally the ONLY one doing a back to back comparison with a sorted tb car and a COC car. We’re counting on your data and results. Be safe have fun and keep the rubber side down. Oh one point, no one said power doesn’t matter. We said it’s not the only thing that matters. In fact I think my quote was “it isn’t all about power”. Your car doesn’t make 700hp right? And you took 4th?

I wish it made 700HP! David has a 6.4 and definitely has more HP than me. Like I said, we'll see how everything falls this year. If Andrew comes in his Challenger, we will all have our work cut out for us.

Based on my observations, the sweet spot for the big dogs of autocross, 700-800HP is the sweet spot.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I wish it made 700HP! David has a 6.4 and definitely has more HP than me. Like I said, we'll see how everything falls this year. If Andrew comes in his Challenger, we will all have our work cut out for us.

Based on my observations, the sweet spot for the big dogs of autocross, 700-800HP is the sweet spot.

In what car? A 300hp Miata is a weapon. A 400hp s2000 is a weapon. It’s all relative. In the grand scheme Id really like some seat time in a car like Ken Thwaits Mitsubishi evo that’s 750hp and all wheel drive. What a riot that thing would be.

 

[racerjoe]

In what car? A 300hp Miata is a weapon. A 400hp s2000 is a weapon. It’s all relative. In the grand scheme Id really like some seat time in a car like Ken Thwaits Mitsubishi evo that’s 750hp and all wheel drive. What a riot that thing would be.

300HP in a Miata would be fast. I wouldn't know because the only ones I've ever driven were stock NAs, which = slow. I guess a better, more accurate way to say it would be HP/weight ratio. Most big dogs in American muscle cars are 700-800HP. Heck the guy that won king of the mountain, second year in a row, is driving an EVO. Its completely gutted, not even a dashboard. No idea on HP, but I would imagine its light.

 

[racerjoe]

You guys should switch seats!

I rode with Brian at the CAM challenge. I can barely fit in his car with a helmet. I had to slouch in the passenger seat. He's got his seats raised some. Mine are as low as I can get them without cutting the bump out the floor.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I guess a better, more accurate way to say it would be HP/weight ratio.

Read back a bit. I said the exact same thing.

 

[RustyRatRod]

He won't tell you, but she's over in the blue room.

Nah, he won't tell us cause he's keepin her to himself. lol

 

[RustyRatRod]

although i do keep a Santeria priestess on staff... but that's mostly for other reasons.

If she's hot, we need pics. If not, don't worry about it. lol

 

[junkyardhero]

If she's hot, we need pics. If not, don't worry about it. lol

*gets out the spray bottle*

no! bad!

i swear! you're hornier than an old three peckered billy goat!

 

[RustyRatRod]

*gets out the spray bottle*

no! bad!

i swear! you're hornier than an old three peckered billy goat!

Let;s just say I ain't gay and leave it right there. lol

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Ok, here's what I'm getting at.

I think the "taxi" is much more than a "slapped together' build that anyone could do and get the same level of performance that Hoschkis got out of that Satellite.

The guys on here who constantly change and modify stock Mopar suspensions are certainly included in the group of experts I'm referring to , the OP, Denny, 72' , to name a few that can pull off this kind of performance.

This is not an "average joe' build by any means.

By any chance is there any video/information/pics of the build of the "Taxi" ?

That would be great to see.

What info would you like?

The Taxi was built in 2012 with nothing more than off the shelf bolt on parts that anyone could bolt on and replicate with ease back then and today. The only thing that was not a true bolt on was the Hotchkis subframe connectors that require a bit of welding to install. The front brakes were only had 11.75" x 1" front rotors. LOL! It didn't even have lower control arm brace plates welded on like everyone does.

Even the front seats and brackets were bolt in off the shelf parts.

The engine was a basic 400 B-engine with 440 crank making it a 452" engine with headers. Again, nothing exotic and quite common and economical back in 2012.

The 18" x 10" Weld wheels were a catalog item. Nothing custom. The tires used most of the time were Falcon 615's 275/35R18 on the front and 295/40R18 on the rear. For the Tire Rack testing, 275's squared were used on off the shelf Mustang wheels.

I get that you can order parts and put them on a car , even vastly improve it.

Getting back to the "Taxi" though, I think its at another level.

I think the Taxi is at the level it is because of this type of experience and knowledge supplied by Hoschkiss and the other suppliers who helped build this exceptional car.

Exactly what level do you thing the Taxi is at? Anyone can replicate everything on the car with ease today.

No.

But as I asked before, who do you know that switched their car back to a torsion bar based suspension after installing a RMS or HDK system?

No one would do that after laying out so much cash to fit a "modern" suspension into their car. They have to justify spending that much coin and leave it in there.

I wish that Dart had gotten some use. Sounds like it had a clutch issue and got parked and who knows where it is now.

Cool build all the way around.

I've heard if the Taxi comes back out, that the Dart Lite will also get the dust knocked off of it.

Did they ever post results from last year? I have looked and can't find them beyond the top winners. I figured because of the rain, they just gave up on finishing well and never went back and posted results.

And David stepped up his car a bunch with a full SpeedTech setup with 315/30R18's

I'm not knocking David and his car in any way. But his lap times at any of the Motor State challenges have not improved or changed enough to say the the QA1 coil over setup or the latest round of Speedtech "upgrades" were any quicker the the torsion bar setup he had with the less than steller wheel and tire combo at that time.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I've heard if the Taxi comes back out, that the Dart Lite will also get the dust knocked off of it.

Please do both of those things.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Please do both of those things.

Why? To show tail lights to coilover equipped cars?

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

I wonder where this car is hiding out? Another lowly torsion bar and leaf spring car.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Why? To show tail lights to coilover equipped cars?

Yes. We need feelings hurt.

 

[racerjoe]

Why? To show tail lights to coilover equipped cars?

Yes please. No better place to do it than Moparty. Its in 2 weeks.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Yes please. No better place to do it than Moparty. Its in 2 weeks.

Not in the cards at this current time.

 

[JBrian]

I rode with Brian at the CAM challenge. I can barely fit in his car with a helmet. I had to slouch in the passenger seat. He's got his seats raised some. Mine are as low as I can get them without cutting the bump out the floor.

I'm 5'6", I have my powered subwoofer under my driver seat, and my remote marine receiver under my passenger seat. The raised driver seat improves driver visibility in autocross where you need to be looking way down course, sometimes looking out the side windows to the next element. In autocross, you need to looking where you're going to be, not where you are. There is actually an advanced autocross class that tapes the lower half of your windshield off by setting a cone 50' in front of your car so you can't see anything closer!

Also consider that the autocross venue at MoParty is very small with big concrete walls all around. It's not the ideal venue to let someone else drive your car. I'm not even sure if the STL-SCCA autocross safety steward would allow racing in that little fishbowl! When Tim was in STL for the former CAM Challenge, it rained, actually poured all day Saturday. I drove with wipers on to learn the fast, complex course. We only had three passes Sunday morning. I pissed away a 71.147 by spinning in the shutdown shoot. I believe tim ran a clean 68 something. I believe the difference between our cars is mostly driver experience and tires.

 

[Super-Cuda]

What info would you like?

The Taxi was built in 2011ish with nothing more than off the shelf bolt on parts that anyone could bolt on and replicate with ease back then and today. The only thing that was not a true bolt on was the Hotchkis subframe connectors that require a bit of welding to install. The front brakes were only had 11.75" x 1" front rotors. LOL! It didn't even have lower control arm brace plates welded on like everyone does.

Even the front seats and brackets were bolt in off the shelf parts.

The engine was a basic 400 B-engine with 440 crank making it a 452" engine with headers. Again, nothing exotic and quite common and economical back in 2012.

The 18" x 10" Weld wheels were a catalog item. Nothing custom. The tires used most of the time were Falcon 615's 275/35R18 on the front and 295/40R18 on the rear. For the Tire Rack testing, 275's squared were used on off the shelf Mustang wheels.




Exactly what level do you thing the Taxi is at? Anyone can replicate everything on the car with ease today.



No one would do that after laying out so much cash to fit a "modern" suspension into their car. They have to justify spending that much coin and leave it in there.



I've heard if the Taxi comes back out, that the Dart Lite will also get the dust knocked off of it.



I'm not knocking David and his car in any way. But his lap times at any of the Motor State challenges have not improved or changed enough to say the the QA1 coil over setup or the latest round of Speedtech "upgrades" were any quicker the the torsion bar setup he had with the less than steller wheel and tire combo at that time.

Please don't take offence to my questions . As I said before, I don't have any agenda here, just inquisitive.

1. What shop built the car and who was involved?

I understand the engine is a stroker motor, approx 535 HP to the crank and was built by Greg Bigford of Auto design.

2. I see the taxi as a purpose built auto crosser , assisted by Hotchkiss to represent their products which it does very well. Hence all the Hotchkiss advertising spread over the car's exterior.

3. As I stated before, I have no issue with the fact that anyone can buy the parts to replicate this car. I was interested in who actually was involved with building it, that's all.

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Please don't take offence to my questions . As I said before, I don't have any agenda here, just inquisitive.

1. What shop built the car and who was involved?

I understand the engine is a stroker motor, approx 535 HP to the crank and was built by Greg Bigford of Auto design.

2. I see the taxi as a purpose built auto crosser , assisted by Hotchkiss to represent their products which it does very well. Hence all the Hotchkiss advertising spread over the car's exterior.

3. As I stated before, I have no issue with the fact that anyone can buy the parts to replicate this car. I was interested in who actually was involved with building it, that's all.

No offense taken.

1. The car was built by Kevin Wesley back in 2012 in his RV storage building on jack stands. He had never welded before but bought a 110V welder to weld in the rear sway bar tabs and subframe connectors. Bolted on all the suspension parts, brakes, engine and transmission in the same shop. It got put on an alignment rack one time back in 2012 and the alignement hasn't been touched since.

1970 Plymouth Satellite - The Cab Ride

In 2013 it went to Popular Hot Rodding's Muscle Car of The Year event to do battle in it's Torsion Bars vs. The World trim and finshed 2nd in the autocross portion of the event due to the MSD box shorting out in the corners and the wrong choice of tire used. The Duster entered in the event had a full array of RMS coil over suspension ffront and rear underneath it. LOL! Torsion bars 1 - Coil overs 0

2013 Muscle Car of the Year

The engine was a 452" big block that probably made about that power. Nothing fancy or exotic.

2. It's is not a purpose built auto crosser. LOL! What all else do you think is done to it? There's no roll cage or anything in it. It was built to do burnouts and have fun in. All of which it will do again one of these days. But will it be better when it does emerge from it's slumber?

Another write up about the event:

PHR Musclecar of the Year 2013 event features DoctorDiff products

 

[Mopar_Taxi_Guy]

Here's a link to the Dart Lite's build:

Hotchkis Performance East - Project 1976 Dodge Dart

Picture albums:

Hotchkis Sport Suspension’s albums | Flickr

 

[TT5.9mag]

Here's a link to the Dart Lite's build:

Hotchkis Performance East - Project 1976 Dodge Dart

Where is that car now?

It’s here as well.
Hotchkis 76 Dart Build

 

[TT5.9mag]

@consulier ??