700R4 GM in a Swinger?

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Tnutz144

Tnutz144

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Alright...I wanted to get some opinions on this. I was at a display for a place called Phoenix Transmissions while at the GoodGuys show in Columbus a few weeks ago, and have been swapping e-mails back and forth with their tech guys. I want to put an overdrive tranny in my Swinger, and was looking at either a 500 or 518, but I'm being told that a GM 700R4 would fit better with no floorpan mods, and they have amount adapter and all the hardware to make it a bolt-in process. They also claim that the 500/518 would probably require mods to the floorpan. I have been checking on tranny prices/torque converters, and, as usual, the GM stuff is easier to find and cheaper. The 700R4 is very close in size and mount position to my 904, and I don't want to beat the hell out of my floor to put a tranny in. Any thoughts?
 
I have a swap article that was published by the now gone hi performance mopar magazine about installing an A500 or A518. It's actually 5 articles and is very well written and informative. If you want this article,just p.m me with your email and I will send it to you. At least you will be better informed as to how much work is involved in swapping an overdrive chrysler into your swinger.

As for the company that wants to sell you a g.m tranny,thats exactly what they want to do,sell you stuff. It might be a good swap but Im sure you'll run into snags just like every non stock swap.
 
I have heard about this swap alot. The tranny is a tad smaller in it's physical size and that makes fitting it in a tad easier. The traick is in the adapter. Trans Dapt (*I beileve*) sells a swap kit for this GM trans to Chysler S/B.
 
Mopar Action Magazine installed one of the 700R4 transmissions in their "Bold Beeper" project car (1969 Road Runner, 496" 700 HP wedge big-block) and supposedly it worked great with very few hassles. Of course they got theirs from Keisler, not the company you mentioned.
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
Mopar Action Magazine installed one of the 700R4 transmissions in their "Bold Beeper" project car (1969 Road Runner, 496" 700 HP wedge big-block) and supposedly it worked great with very few hassles. Of course they got theirs from Keisler, not the company you mentioned.
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Really?Those 700R4's arent known for thier strength,so I guess thats why mopar action went to Keisler for an upgraded one that would live behind a torque monster like a 496. A 496 would tear a stock one up pretty quick.
 
The Kiesler kit is based on a much evolved version of the 700R4. Basically a 1/2 ton truck tranny, plenty strong enough for a small block. The early 700R4's had some issues, but they were mostly fixed by 87 or so. If you rebuild a core transmission, there are plenty of beef up parts for the 700R4. In stock form, a 700R4 is probably stronger than an A500 (especially the converter).

Adapting an A518 isn't that difficult, but there is some surgery needed to the floor pan and the rear crossmember. And since the rear crossmember carries the weight of the front suspension, you can't just cut it away. Plenty of magazine articles out there. Eherenberg did at least 2 articles on this, both in HP Mopar in like 89, and again in Mopar Action in the 90's. I might be able to scan a copy next time I'm near home.
 
needsaresto said:
Really?Those 700R4's arent known for thier strength,so I guess thats why mopar action went to Keisler for an upgraded one that would live behind a torque monster like a 496. A 496 would tear a stock one up pretty quick.
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Yeah, the Keisler one was an upgraded version rated at (I think) 650 ft-lbs. It was actually the GM 4L60E.
 
Yeah, if I did it, I would get my own tranny and have it done, then buy the adapter/cables/etc. from them or someone else...they want around $1800 for their 700R4...I know I can get one and have it built for less than that...Craigslist here in central Ohio has several plain 700R4's for $150-$400. As far as keeping it Mopar, I would like to do that but if it means beating my floors in or cutting them up, I'm not going that route. Thanks for the input guys! I love this site....I'm always reading the different posts and seeing what everyone else is doong with their cars!
 
The 700R4 has some design deficiencies that does not make it a good hi-perfromance choice and aren't fixable with after market parts . The better would be the GM 200-4R, this is the tranny that was put behind the performance GM products back in the late 80's.
 
Here's a post of mine from a year ago along the same subject but using a 200-4R instead of the 700-R4:
I've been thinking about a 200-4R behind a 360 magnum crate motor in a '69 Dart for the past week or so. Talked to several tranny companies about it and finally contacted Art Carr at California Performance Transmissions last week. He estimates total cost including converter and installation at about $3300. This does not include a new 8" longer driveshaft since the 200-4R is 8" shorter than a 727. It's also lighter and doesn't have as much HP loss through the transmission. The gear ratios are better than the 727 and it does not require trans tunnel surgery to fit. Art says he has a customer in PA with one behind a 406 stroker that runs 11.80s and still pulls down 25 mpg on the freeway.
Somebody tell me something bad about this setup......
Nobody came back with anything bad except the standard "Don't put a GM part in your Mopar". I haven't progressed enough with my project yet but still strongly considering this.
 
Phoenix is very reputable. In fact, Greg (the owner) runs a 4L60E behind a potent sb stroker in his e body. Granted, the 700R4 is a less evolved version, and not electronic, but basically the same thing. One of these units is a good idea as they can be built to take up to 500+hp as offered by many good builders out there. The big bonus is that this unit has the mount within a 1/4" of where the torqueflite is. The 700 has a bad rap from the early years, but is a good unit if built right.
I have seen some 518 installations that have been downright brutal. If I were going this route, and have thought about it, I would go for the 700. Spend the money for a trans that has good parts, good converter as well. Also, go for a nice (aluminum ) driveshaft to keep up with the higher driveshaft speed of OD units and have fun.
 
GMachineDartGT said:
Also, go for a nice (aluminum ) driveshaft to keep up with the higher driveshaft speed of OD units and have fun.
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I'm a little foggy as to how driveshaft speed would be higher with an OD transmission. With identical vehicle speeds, the driveshaft rotation speed would also be identical.
Disclaimer: This is assuming that a shorter rear gear hasn't quietly entered the equation somewhere.
 
Here's my 4l65e (nearly same externally as 700r4/4l60e) with a Quicktime bellhousing to bolt up to a 6.1hemi................Fbody Camaro guys build these transmissions to run in the 9's. It's smaller than a A518, a little fatter than the 727 in the rear half

Quicktime has install kits for the torque convertor as well (mopar crank/GM trans).....BB,SB and GenIII

5-27-09 updates 053.JPG
 
I was looking into doing a ford AOD behind my 360. Found a place that would sell me an entrire trans with a mopar bell housing. He wont sell just the bell housing though and I haven't found anyone to sell them . Just want thr bell because I have a buddy that could build me an awesome low first gear unit.
 
rjsjea said:
Here's my 4l65e (nearly same externally as 700r4/4l60e) with a Quicktime bellhousing to bolt up to a 6.1hemi................Fbody Camaro guys build these transmissions to run in the 9's. It's smaller than a A518, a little fatter than the 727 in the rear half

Quicktime has install kits for the torque convertor as well (mopar crank/GM trans).....BB,SB and GenIII
Click to expand...

Is that trans computer controlled? If so is there a stand alone set up for it? Have you bolted it into the car yet? If so how is the fit? Are they easy and reasonably priced to get?
 
MOPEkidD-3 said:
Yeah, the Keisler one was an upgraded version rated at (I think) 650 ft-lbs. It was actually the GM 4L60E.
Click to expand...

The 4L60E can be retrofitted with better guts to make it a 4L65E. The other advantage to this trans is the lower first gear ratio. I built one of these for a 94 Blazer, and it did very well. There is a servo upgrade for the front band, which is a step above the Corvette piece. I don't recommend against it, but when we put it in a case for a 98 K1500, it blew out the servo housing from the main trans case. It hits hard enough that under light acceleration, it will chirp the tires on 1-2 shift. This could be toned down by playing with the line pressure servo motor.

Overall, its not a bad trans. Two weak points that stand out in my mind are the OD clutch, which tends to burn (the "65" upgrade should take care of that) and the overrunning clutch that lives in the middle of the clutch drum will give you headaches if its slipping at all. The other thing is that its "new" tech, which means no more cast steel drums, and all aluminum and stamped steel drums inside. This means less rotating mass, but may also mean less ability to handle large hp/torque. The Corvette version of this trans had a separate bell housing, which means a bell for SB Mopars isn't very hard to make.

Only other downside is the electronic controls. The Mopar trans is easier to wire in, but will require manual switches. The 4L60E wiring, a place like Keisler or Phoenix should have this handled. That, and its not anywhere near as easy to rebuild. I can tell you about some special tools I made, if you decide to go that way.

I've toyed with this idea myself, but I'd have to do it undercover, since I'd never live it down with my friends.
 
abodyjoe said:
Is that trans computer controlled? If so is there a stand alone set up for it? Have you bolted it into the car yet? If so how is the fit? Are they easy and reasonably priced to get?
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Yes it's computer controlled. The controller can control shift points, line pressures, monitor temp, lockup speeds etc.....There are several sources for a controller. The trans is bolted up to the motor and in the car, cant say how it would fit in a "normal" car as mine is way modified. I have a set of paddle shifters to mount on the column.

Reasonalbly priced, uhm....The controller I am getting is a $1300 bucks with a custom program already done and a display screen for very simple push button tuning. But there are much cheaper options out there. http://twistmachine.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=8
 
abodyjoe said:
I was looking into doing a ford AOD behind my 360. Found a place that would sell me an entrire trans with a mopar bell housing. He wont sell just the bell housing though and I haven't found anyone to sell them . Just want thr bell because I have a buddy that could build me an awesome low first gear unit.
Click to expand...
my trans buddy was wanting to build me an aode/4r70w hybrid. but the adapter issue is what will hold it up.if you ever stumble accross one the company that makes them let me know......
 
The first gear is too steep like 3 to 1 if running 4.10 gears (which you can easily do with an OD trans. Then second gear is only 1.6 so it pull the motor down quite a bit on the 1 to 2 shift. Same on the 2 to 3 shift.

The old T.F. ratios of 2.45 and 1.45 work better but no OD
 
inkjunkie said:
my trans buddy was wanting to build me an aode/4r70w hybrid. but the adapter issue is what will hold it up.if you ever stumble accross one the company that makes them let me know......
Click to expand...


here is the guy that is selling the aod to mopar trans.http://www.lentechautomatics.com/aodproducts.html#

here is the price list.

http://www.lentechautomatics.com/aodpricing.html



when i called him a while back he said they don't sell the adapter separate. you have to buy one of their transmissions then the adapter too. i figure someone has to make it for them, just don't know who. for their mild street trans its $1900 and the adapter is close to $800. kinda sucks because i know i can get and do the trrans dirt cheap if i could only buy the adapter bell housing seperate.
 
abodyjoe said:
here is the guy that is selling the aod to mopar trans.http://www.lentechautomatics.com/aodproducts.html#

here is the price list.

http://www.lentechautomatics.com/aodpricing.html



when i called him a while back he said they don't sell the adapter separate. you have to buy one of their transmissions then the adapter too. i figure someone has to make it for them, just don't know who. for their mild street trans its $1900 and the adapter is close to $800. kinda sucks because i know i can get and do the trrans dirt cheap if i could only buy the adapter bell housing seperate.
Click to expand...
lentech is the ford trans guru, from what i understand. i belong to the Fairlane Club of America, i have a 64 Sports Coupe, and everybody there that has used him speaks very highly of him. Another place that sells the aode with adapter is http://www.fbperformance.com/page.asp?get=9&t=TopR_BottomL, I have never been in contact with them so you might want to try him...

fairlane.jpg
 
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