73dart360
Well-Known Member
How Much would you benefit with Indy heads Vs W2 both ported with same components besides the weight?
Ported Indy VS open chamber ported W2
- Thread starter 73dart360
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Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
That depends on the level of porting done. If the same person was doing the work, or lets say a full port W2 vs. a cnc 230 ported Indy oval port head...IF the engine was large enough and has enough compression/cam, etc.. the Indy will make more power.
The 230 port is pretty large and would take a ton of porting on a W2 to match...might be impossible within the W2 casting.
It would really depend on the engine and what it needs to get the job done. A typical RHS headed street 410 will make 480-520HP on pump gas while a 420cid sb with 13:1, race gas, large roller cam and rpm ceiling of 7500rpm will make over 700HP with an Indy head.
Brian
73dart360
Well-Known Member
Good Info thanks Brian I am thinking next year buying a Race block and going with 13.1 compression like you mentioned above .
pettybludart
Well-Known Member
Yes that's some good info to know.Thanks
To the OP;
Are you thinking that IF the 2 heads were ported equal? With the same size runners in and out?
Aluminum doesn't make more power than iron. But it does allow more compression than a iron head with the same octane. This is why you see aluminum heads with closed chambers
The Indy head has the abilty to be ported out and flow more air and fuel over the W2 head. This is why you will see the Indy head before the W2 head on a car. Cost wise, you can look up the CNC ported Indy heads. With the W2, it's a head purchase, then all the parts, then it is off to the head porter. You can calculate the cost of parts, then the head ports cost is on top of it all.
Depending on where you live and/or who's porting the iron, the cost can vary a good bit. (Shipping to a guy is extra when you get the W2 heads, if you ship, shipping of the Indy heads to you is an additional cost over the price you pay for them.)
Are you thinking that IF the 2 heads were ported equal? With the same size runners in and out?
Aluminum doesn't make more power than iron. But it does allow more compression than a iron head with the same octane. This is why you see aluminum heads with closed chambers
The Indy head has the abilty to be ported out and flow more air and fuel over the W2 head. This is why you will see the Indy head before the W2 head on a car. Cost wise, you can look up the CNC ported Indy heads. With the W2, it's a head purchase, then all the parts, then it is off to the head porter. You can calculate the cost of parts, then the head ports cost is on top of it all.
Depending on where you live and/or who's porting the iron, the cost can vary a good bit. (Shipping to a guy is extra when you get the W2 heads, if you ship, shipping of the Indy heads to you is an additional cost over the price you pay for them.)
Brain;
Have your fully ported W2 heads?
Do you know/remember what they flowed?
What would be your price?
Have your fully ported W2 heads?
Do you know/remember what they flowed?
What would be your price?
My batten heads / aluminum W2 ported & flowed by Ryan at shadydell . At 600 lift they flowed 312.2 int. 221.1 exh. all numbers @ 28" H2o, no tube on exhaust. X block 428 ci. Motor made 593.8 @ 6400 with valves scraping the side of the reliefs on the pistons. Built by shadydell, My Resto block 416 made +200 more @ 7900 with 360-1 indy heads. Built at High Tech Machine. Home of the Hemi hunter. These numbers were at the crank on a superflow. I believe the battens/ W2's would have made alot more if the motor was machined properly. The 428 had a comp cam grind number RX308R-8 4800-7800 and fell of at 6400.
read this for some help and enlightenment. While not a end all to a topic like this, it should help shed some light on the topic and your understanding.
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/7choosingheadsaluminumvsironwhichonesdoyouneed.php
Old man, 7900!!! WOW! Turnin some RPM there ain't ya!
I hope the OP isn't doing this, then again, LOL I hope he is. That kind of power will put 99% of brand X on the trailer...or there tails under there legs! One heck of a street car that would be.
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/7choosingheadsaluminumvsironwhichonesdoyouneed.php
Old man, 7900!!! WOW! Turnin some RPM there ain't ya!
I hope the OP isn't doing this, then again, LOL I hope he is. That kind of power will put 99% of brand X on the trailer...or there tails under there legs! One heck of a street car that would be.
I have the shift light set a 8000. The rev limit on the digital 6 at 9000. Last mopar cruise at Reagle Dodge in Bangor Pa. I was told no way! could a small block mopar go that high and stay together. So I did a J. Force tire torch out front and left it sit with the recall on for all to see including members on here. 9300.
This motor is two years old. Its coming out this year for rings and lifter change. My engine builder told me RPM's with no load will not hurt this motor. Its hard to load this motor on the street with the suspension and tires I have. If its hooking hard I shift at 7000 1-2 7500 2-3 I have taking this to 8500 in drive with 456 gears and 29 inch rubber to hold off a GT500. I don't know the excact MPH but the 150 speedo was pegged . It does get real light and hard to control , So you need big Ganolas to street drive this car. And never under estimate its power.
This car will kill you in a heart beat. This is what happened to one I sold to someone who had no respect for HP. He is no longer here. lost it shifting into drive and hit a rock. I am sure you saw these pics of my old GSS Demon.
I was called to the seen for to tow and clean up an accident seen and couldn't believe my eyes. It was my car. The steering wheel was against the passenger side A-pillar before they cut off the roof an door to remove the passenger. My friend , The drivers legs were wrapped up in the floor and he looked as though he exploded. He had it for three days. This is why I will not sell my Duster with the motor in it, But it will be sold.
This motor is two years old. Its coming out this year for rings and lifter change. My engine builder told me RPM's with no load will not hurt this motor. Its hard to load this motor on the street with the suspension and tires I have. If its hooking hard I shift at 7000 1-2 7500 2-3 I have taking this to 8500 in drive with 456 gears and 29 inch rubber to hold off a GT500. I don't know the excact MPH but the 150 speedo was pegged . It does get real light and hard to control , So you need big Ganolas to street drive this car. And never under estimate its power.
This car will kill you in a heart beat. This is what happened to one I sold to someone who had no respect for HP. He is no longer here. lost it shifting into drive and hit a rock. I am sure you saw these pics of my old GSS Demon.
I was called to the seen for to tow and clean up an accident seen and couldn't believe my eyes. It was my car. The steering wheel was against the passenger side A-pillar before they cut off the roof an door to remove the passenger. My friend , The drivers legs were wrapped up in the floor and he looked as though he exploded. He had it for three days. This is why I will not sell my Duster with the motor in it, But it will be sold.
73dart360
Well-Known Member
Rumble very interesting article , It puts things in perspective
Man that is so so sad!
I have a 64 dart with a very strong 416 nasty MVB 727 with custom low planets that makes a 3.91 factor to a 4.56 and with street tires at 60 235 60 15s at 1/2 throttle car goes side ways.
These cars with these 500+ HP engines need someone with a serious amount of respect and a good driver.
They are meant for thee track and the corect tires, safety features etc.
All I can say is that with the help of many of you guys on the site I built a pretty nasty, yet expensive car that is a monster, it is pass scary fast, it is sick fast and dam right scares me and has my respect.
And that is how it should be stay safe!!!
I have a 64 dart with a very strong 416 nasty MVB 727 with custom low planets that makes a 3.91 factor to a 4.56 and with street tires at 60 235 60 15s at 1/2 throttle car goes side ways.
These cars with these 500+ HP engines need someone with a serious amount of respect and a good driver.
They are meant for thee track and the corect tires, safety features etc.
All I can say is that with the help of many of you guys on the site I built a pretty nasty, yet expensive car that is a monster, it is pass scary fast, it is sick fast and dam right scares me and has my respect.
And that is how it should be stay safe!!!
Your welcome. Thanks to Hughes engines for writing it up. Car Craft also did a bunch of back to back dyno runs between iron and aluminum heads and found no HP difference between the material used for the head. It's about how the head flows.
The use of aluminum allows more compression. So in this, more power should be found. MoPar muscle did a compression test. The ratio was adjusted via head gasket thickness. What they found on there particular combo was that 1 point up in the ratio was approx. 3% more power. More importantly, the ratio must work with the cam being used.
Being that Brain did not get back to use since he was last on (And at the time of this writing, he may be just waking up since I'm in New York and he is in sunny Cali.) I'm taking the liberty to copy and paste a page from his site on head cost. Below is what you'll find on his site.
A few members here have used Brian's services and love his work and the out come of it on there engines. Check out his site.
Ol'man. My buddy, Chevy clown,but otherwise a good fella, tries to rub his 9,000 rpm car in my face. I just smile and ask if his cam/engine is even making power past 6500 and laff. His combo? THPHHH (Razz-berries) not worth 7 grand.
BUT, what the deal is with any engine is, build it right and RPM is not an issue.
BUT, what the deal is with any engine is, build it right and RPM is not an issue.
My car pulls hard 4500 to 8000 . Does it need to go that high? No . But it does easily and quickly and higher. Sometimes unwanted if your trying to steer it. A Higher gear ratio 410's should calm it down this year.
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
Yes, I've done around 30 sets of W2's in my lifetime. The W2's I'm currently working with are mine, 15° 'ers.
They flowed 327cfm at .700 with a 2.08 valve and they have a very nice flow curve. This head was designed for the 48° block so not easily adapted to the 59° block.
Most full port W2's I do will go 320's at .700 lift.
Cost to port the heads, valve job, surface cut, cleaning, assembly, seals, flow bench test, and bronze guides installed is 1600.00 including the guides.
Not cheap!!
Brian
Thanks Brian. Hope ya didn't mind me jumping in before you got to work/here.
Well, porting heads ain't cheap, iron is a lot harder and ya gotta want to run iron or need to due to class rules or wallet. (Using what ya got)
Can you get the Edelbrocks to flow that much? With or without crazy mod's? That is a lot of lift.
Well, porting heads ain't cheap, iron is a lot harder and ya gotta want to run iron or need to due to class rules or wallet. (Using what ya got)
Can you get the Edelbrocks to flow that much? With or without crazy mod's? That is a lot of lift.
If you use W2, they willl not come close to a closed chamber Indy unless you have quench pad on you pistons. I have aluminum W2 heads and my problem is that I can't change because of the quench pad. I am done with serious racing and would like to put on Edelbrocks but I need to change headers, intake, heads and rockers. Oh yeah, buy different pushrods. Not cost effective for this old fart. My Diamond W2's flow over 300 cfm which I have no use for now. I wish that I could afford to sell them and have some younger racer get the power they can make
Your running a domed slug now? With the open chambered Batten heads? What intake do you have now? You can't run an Edelbrock?
I might have to talk to you in 6 months about this Ted.
I might have to talk to you in 6 months about this Ted.
Ted do you have a price on that W2 topend complete.
scampman416
Well-Known Member
I agree on the power these eng will make, my new R3 engine is insane. my last 360 build had 400 hp to rear tires and it was fast, I even let a selected few test drive it, but with this R3 and probably 650 to rear tires ( no dyno # ) I would never let any one drive it. 71 Valiant 416 Indy 230 fully ported, 4 spd 833 face plated 4.88s w/ 29.5 M/T dot drag I only made a few passes with it this year but it ran a 9.99 @ 133.8 mph on slicks and there is definitely more in it yet. I think I will get closer to 9.7s before I put the Nos to it.
here is a vid on the street.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bGQlZhqS-w"]71 Scamp ,650 Hp Small Block, 4 spd ,Test drive. - YouTube[/ame]
Brian Hafliger
Well-Known Member
Ha, contrary to popular belief I'm way more easier going than that! Ofcourse I don't mind...
My full port eddy heads with 2.08 valves go 305cfm at .700 lift. And that porting is about the same except they don't usually need guides. If you check out our last engine build in CarCraft all the info on our ported Eddy heads is there including flow#'s and some pics.
I will post dyno info on my engine when it's done. It will also be for sale but it will go into my car for a short period so I can get back to the track for some FUN!!
Brian
airwoofer
Drivetrain limit explorer
Scampman's 416 is definate proof that a guy has to respect these cars when the engine gets built. I love watching him spin the tires at will.
My eddy's never got flowed when I took them off my new strker and carried them to the engine shop - guy wouldn't show up at work. They look pretty good (not that that matters) and the porter puit in steel tubes where the ports were opened up and exposed the pushrod holes. 10-1 and pump gas, car is as fast as it can be without me having to put in bars which is the goal.
Looking forward to Brians next build report!
My eddy's never got flowed when I took them off my new strker and carried them to the engine shop - guy wouldn't show up at work. They look pretty good (not that that matters) and the porter puit in steel tubes where the ports were opened up and exposed the pushrod holes. 10-1 and pump gas, car is as fast as it can be without me having to put in bars which is the goal.
Looking forward to Brians next build report!
73dart360
Well-Known Member
Scampmans car is a monster
scampman416
Well-Known Member
Ya it is that, thanks for the coments it is a blast to drive, I was looking for more power but I never expected this much, nor did I expect to get into the 9s first time out or at all for that metter.
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