DodgeLad
Skipped the Light Fandango
aye
ANY WW2 Historians here??
- Thread starter Princess Valiant
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aye
Not quite true - the Doolittle Raid bombed Japan with B-25s before the B-29s were there.
But that was for morale purposes (our side) and demoralizing purposes (their side), and a one-way, one-off mission. Not sure how those air crews managed to fit their huge brass pairs in those tiny bomber seats...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
Two of the 80 Raiders are still alive today.
Only the fuselage was on display when I was there...and they have (one of?) the last B-36 bomber(s) there...and a Goblin parasite fighter...
If you end up in the Tucson, Arizona area, the Pima Air-Space museum is worth a visit. You can double-up with a visit to the Titan Missile Museum (about 40 minutes away) to see the last remaining Titan II missile silo (with a training missile inside). I wouldn't try to triple that up with the AMARG (aka "Boneyard" tour), unless you're going to spend a second day there.
a little WW11 personal stuff here. my dad was a young man in the 30's great depression era. his dad was a farmer and circuit horse and buggy preacher. my dad had a great interest in mechanics, but $$ and work was limited in rural s w Ga no doubt during that era. he joined the USMC then, which was more of being accepted than just joining . he went into aviation mechanics, even though I know before WW11, he fought in several small invasions. sorta Grenada type stuff. may dad was in his early 40's when I came along.
after leaving the service in '55, 4 years in WW11 and 1 in Korea took a great toll on him. he basically could not talk of it. I have a few phots of his squadron while in the Pacific. he was stationed in Japan for a while after the war. and photos he took of the countryside and locals while in Korea.
I find the aircraft of that period fascinating, while myself, I have never wanted to OFF the ground!!!!! many times I wished he could tell me of his experiences there, but...... about all he mentioned was flying in bombers with the guns removed doing aerial recon in Pacific,,,,, and young guys first coming to an island and drinking too much coconut juice and getting a bad case of the squits!!!! LOL ..... he would, could not..... he never sat foot on another plane.
after leaving the service in '55, 4 years in WW11 and 1 in Korea took a great toll on him. he basically could not talk of it. I have a few phots of his squadron while in the Pacific. he was stationed in Japan for a while after the war. and photos he took of the countryside and locals while in Korea.
I find the aircraft of that period fascinating, while myself, I have never wanted to OFF the ground!!!!! many times I wished he could tell me of his experiences there, but...... about all he mentioned was flying in bombers with the guns removed doing aerial recon in Pacific,,,,, and young guys first coming to an island and drinking too much coconut juice and getting a bad case of the squits!!!! LOL ..... he would, could not..... he never sat foot on another plane.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Lord I had forgotten those horrid little things..........
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvmwfoyIZLQ"]XF85 "Goblin" - YouTube[/ame]
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I know very well about the Doolittle raid. But that was not practical on a continuing basis. That took MONTHS to train and plan, and even then resulted in some deaths to the crews. It was more a morale boost than anything else, and did quite minimal damage
No I was referring more to continuing raids. The problem was we simply didn't have land bases in range of the Island, until the appearance of the '29 and the taking of some Pacific Islands, notably Tinian
zigs
Well-Known Member
This is true but off a Carrier . Talk about pucker time.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Hi Ranigirl,
I'm glad you have an interest in the old warbirds. They are truly cool. There is nothing cooler than large cubic inch piston aircraft engines.
Typical wartime powerplants were the wright aviation cyclone R1850 , and R2380 the numbers stand for the cubic inches of engine size. These things had pistons the diameters of large coffee cans.
I believe if my memory is correct is the R 1850 was a 9 cylinder single row radial engine displacing 1,850 cubic inches
The R 2350 was an 18 cylinder radial with 9 cylinders per row displacing 2,350 cubic inches.
These giants went all the way up to the R4360, and R4430. The R4360, and R4430 had 4 rows of 9 cylinders each row, pressure carburetion , and triple power recovery turbines. These were the pinnacle of the radial engines. Thats a lot of cubic inches.
There were also V12 liquid cooled engines. Rolls Royce made the Merlin V12 liquid engines. They used these in the supermarine spitfires.
Allthough allison aircraft made the first V12 liquids for the north american aircraft corp P-51 mustang, Packard also made the Rolls Royce Merlin under licence in the states and when installed in the successive versions of the north american aircraft corp P-51 Mustang it allowed this aircraft to really run.
The final version of the mustang was the P-51 D model of which had a bubble canopy giving the pilot a full 360 degree view. Mustangs were mainly used as bomber escorts. The nazis would wait until the mustangs peeled off to go back to base as they didnt have the fuel range of the bombers. At this point the nazi air force would attack the bombers.
Speaking of bombers. The boeing B-17 superfortress was just bad ***. 4 radial engines, hamilton standard hydromatic variable pitch propellers. The problem was getting on target for the bomb run. The captain and first officer would get the aircraft there, then the bombadier in the nosecone took over and made small flight adjustments while looking through a norton bombsight, until in target then they dropped their payload. This required the bomber to fly straight and level, all the while german fighters trying to shoot the american bombers out of the air
I have seen video footage of B-17s flying back to bases in England with half their tails shot off. One land with only one engine running at 100 percent power and the other 3 engines shut down. I think if your bomber crew flew 25 missions and didnt get shot down you got to go home. The memphis belle was one such aircraft that beat the odds.
Allison aircraft engines also made a V12 liquid that eventually found use in the Lockheed P-38 twin engined Lightning fighter. This engine was mechanical fuel injected , and was turbo supercharged. This allowed the lightning to have sea level war rated power at full throttle while at altitude. The turbo supercharger force fed air into the engine so the engine would get oxygen dense air above 10,000 feet. The lightnings props turned opposite directions or counter rotation to prevent prop torque induced yaw.
The Allison V12s were also used in PT boats in WW2. These boats though made of wood to keep weight down still displaced 8 tons fully loaded with armament. The allisons were not turbo supercharged for these applications. Each PT boat used 3 of these engines. They could go from a standing start to top speed of about 50 mph in approx 8 seconds. And burned about 100 gallons of fuel per hour per 10 hour tour. Thats pretty quick and thirsty for an 8 ton deep Vee boat.
Since these used AV gas it was delivered to PT boat bases in 55 gallon drums, and had to be transferred to the boats tanks via hand cranked pumps. Remember these boats burned 100 gallons per hour, and were usually at sea for 8-10 hour tours. The tanks held a reserve so your looking at about 1,200 gallons of fuel.
PT boats had to make a banzai run toward their intended target, get the torpedo (fish) props started then roll em off the side of the boat into the water headed towards the target, then they would turn away from the target and haul *** to get away hoping they dont get hit by enemy shells.
The B-24 Liberator was made in Ft Worth. A 4 engined bomber with twin rudders it never seemed to capture the imagination like the B-17 did. These came off the assembly line at the rate of 1 per hour during the height of the war. Lots of women worked in these factories riveting this stuff together. I was able to see the memphis belle in person at mud island in memphis. Looking at the riveting that was done to build these you can tell that these things were definitely built in a hurry.
Theres lots lots more. I figured you would be interested in the powerplants and mechanical stuff first. Feel free to pick my brain for more. I love this stuff.
I'm glad you have an interest in the old warbirds. They are truly cool. There is nothing cooler than large cubic inch piston aircraft engines.
Typical wartime powerplants were the wright aviation cyclone R1850 , and R2380 the numbers stand for the cubic inches of engine size. These things had pistons the diameters of large coffee cans.
I believe if my memory is correct is the R 1850 was a 9 cylinder single row radial engine displacing 1,850 cubic inches
The R 2350 was an 18 cylinder radial with 9 cylinders per row displacing 2,350 cubic inches.
These giants went all the way up to the R4360, and R4430. The R4360, and R4430 had 4 rows of 9 cylinders each row, pressure carburetion , and triple power recovery turbines. These were the pinnacle of the radial engines. Thats a lot of cubic inches.
There were also V12 liquid cooled engines. Rolls Royce made the Merlin V12 liquid engines. They used these in the supermarine spitfires.
Allthough allison aircraft made the first V12 liquids for the north american aircraft corp P-51 mustang, Packard also made the Rolls Royce Merlin under licence in the states and when installed in the successive versions of the north american aircraft corp P-51 Mustang it allowed this aircraft to really run.
The final version of the mustang was the P-51 D model of which had a bubble canopy giving the pilot a full 360 degree view. Mustangs were mainly used as bomber escorts. The nazis would wait until the mustangs peeled off to go back to base as they didnt have the fuel range of the bombers. At this point the nazi air force would attack the bombers.
Speaking of bombers. The boeing B-17 superfortress was just bad ***. 4 radial engines, hamilton standard hydromatic variable pitch propellers. The problem was getting on target for the bomb run. The captain and first officer would get the aircraft there, then the bombadier in the nosecone took over and made small flight adjustments while looking through a norton bombsight, until in target then they dropped their payload. This required the bomber to fly straight and level, all the while german fighters trying to shoot the american bombers out of the air
I have seen video footage of B-17s flying back to bases in England with half their tails shot off. One land with only one engine running at 100 percent power and the other 3 engines shut down. I think if your bomber crew flew 25 missions and didnt get shot down you got to go home. The memphis belle was one such aircraft that beat the odds.
Allison aircraft engines also made a V12 liquid that eventually found use in the Lockheed P-38 twin engined Lightning fighter. This engine was mechanical fuel injected , and was turbo supercharged. This allowed the lightning to have sea level war rated power at full throttle while at altitude. The turbo supercharger force fed air into the engine so the engine would get oxygen dense air above 10,000 feet. The lightnings props turned opposite directions or counter rotation to prevent prop torque induced yaw.
The Allison V12s were also used in PT boats in WW2. These boats though made of wood to keep weight down still displaced 8 tons fully loaded with armament. The allisons were not turbo supercharged for these applications. Each PT boat used 3 of these engines. They could go from a standing start to top speed of about 50 mph in approx 8 seconds. And burned about 100 gallons of fuel per hour per 10 hour tour. Thats pretty quick and thirsty for an 8 ton deep Vee boat.
Since these used AV gas it was delivered to PT boat bases in 55 gallon drums, and had to be transferred to the boats tanks via hand cranked pumps. Remember these boats burned 100 gallons per hour, and were usually at sea for 8-10 hour tours. The tanks held a reserve so your looking at about 1,200 gallons of fuel.
PT boats had to make a banzai run toward their intended target, get the torpedo (fish) props started then roll em off the side of the boat into the water headed towards the target, then they would turn away from the target and haul *** to get away hoping they dont get hit by enemy shells.
The B-24 Liberator was made in Ft Worth. A 4 engined bomber with twin rudders it never seemed to capture the imagination like the B-17 did. These came off the assembly line at the rate of 1 per hour during the height of the war. Lots of women worked in these factories riveting this stuff together. I was able to see the memphis belle in person at mud island in memphis. Looking at the riveting that was done to build these you can tell that these things were definitely built in a hurry.
Theres lots lots more. I figured you would be interested in the powerplants and mechanical stuff first. Feel free to pick my brain for more. I love this stuff.
adriver
Blazing Apostle
http://www.commemorativeairforce.org/
Easy enough once you get started with the internet.
I think I know a little bit.
For example google the P38 with Yamomoto.
That mission was in this movie with Denis Weaver.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xGwwm6GSes"]The Gallant Hours (1960)... - YouTube[/ame]
Or the P38 with Lindberg.
The B17? IIRC the Army 8th Air Force had the heaviest losses of any group.
One third dead, one third captured during the war. As I said, IIRC.
[ame]https://youtu.be/yVbnDBBtg3I[/ame]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweinfurt–Regensburg_mission
To take out the ball bearing plant and the aircraft factory.
The plan was to split the Luftwaffe. Turned into operation cluster stuck.
The Corsair is the one with gull wings to clear the ground for the prop.
"Whistling Death" the Japanese called it.
The British were the ones that figured out how to land it on a carrier with the gull wings blocking the pilot's view.
Easy enough once you get started with the internet.
I think I know a little bit.
For example google the P38 with Yamomoto.
That mission was in this movie with Denis Weaver.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xGwwm6GSes"]The Gallant Hours (1960)... - YouTube[/ame]
Or the P38 with Lindberg.
The B17? IIRC the Army 8th Air Force had the heaviest losses of any group.
One third dead, one third captured during the war. As I said, IIRC.
[ame]https://youtu.be/yVbnDBBtg3I[/ame]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweinfurt–Regensburg_mission
To take out the ball bearing plant and the aircraft factory.
The plan was to split the Luftwaffe. Turned into operation cluster stuck.
The Corsair is the one with gull wings to clear the ground for the prop.
"Whistling Death" the Japanese called it.
The British were the ones that figured out how to land it on a carrier with the gull wings blocking the pilot's view.
adriver
Blazing Apostle
The British bomb during the night in Europe. The Americans bomb during the day and suffered for it.
Oh and by the way a little fact of special interest here.
Fire bombed Japan with the B29.
Oh, a little fact of interest here.
Jump to: navigation, search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Chicago_Plant
The Dodge Chicago Aircraft Engine Plant was a World War II defense plant that built the majority of the B-29 bomber aircraft engines used in World War II.
Oh and by the way a little fact of special interest here.
Fire bombed Japan with the B29.
Oh, a little fact of interest here.
Jump to: navigation, search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Chicago_Plant
The Dodge Chicago Aircraft Engine Plant was a World War II defense plant that built the majority of the B-29 bomber aircraft engines used in World War II.
adriver
Blazing Apostle
"Plywood coffins"
Just ask JFK. Oh, never mind.
[ame]https://youtu.be/Tw05FWYciHU[/ame]
norshorblufish
By the Big Water
The Army Air Corp also fought in the Pacific.
They I believe were mainly bomber escorts at first but I could be wrong.
They flew mainly P70s, P38s, P39s, P40s, P47, P51s,and of course the bombers.
I know the P40s,51s,and 47s were also used in Europe as will as B17s not quite sure of the other bombers.
My father in law Bob started out in bombers but was able to transfer to fighters at Oahu.
Then was based on Ie Shima an island off of Okinawa.
He flew P38s and his last planes P47d and P47n. The 47s were kind of multi purpose used as fighters and bombers they could also carry missiles.
He was in the 318 Fighter Group 73rd Fighter Squadron.
Here's some pictures:
View attachment SacHap2.jpg Bob and his plane
View attachment nose art2 (640x485).jpg
View attachment scan0011.jpg
View attachment bob and flag2.jpg Bob is the one to the far left.
The small flags my brother in law says he has.
They I believe were mainly bomber escorts at first but I could be wrong.
They flew mainly P70s, P38s, P39s, P40s, P47, P51s,and of course the bombers.
I know the P40s,51s,and 47s were also used in Europe as will as B17s not quite sure of the other bombers.
My father in law Bob started out in bombers but was able to transfer to fighters at Oahu.
Then was based on Ie Shima an island off of Okinawa.
He flew P38s and his last planes P47d and P47n. The 47s were kind of multi purpose used as fighters and bombers they could also carry missiles.
He was in the 318 Fighter Group 73rd Fighter Squadron.
Here's some pictures:
View attachment SacHap2.jpg Bob and his plane
View attachment nose art2 (640x485).jpg
View attachment scan0011.jpg
View attachment bob and flag2.jpg Bob is the one to the far left.
The small flags my brother in law says he has.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Cool
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
The B-29 FiFi is owned by the confederate air force. About 10 years ago it was doing touch and gos at the regional airport i work at. It was so loud it would rattle the sheetmetal on the buildings.
On the topic of radial aircraft engines...I recently saw a couple of neat videos that show how they work:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjnQKXNPsk4"]How a Radial Engine Works - Explained Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R71Xhrkc3EQ"]How a Radial Engine Works - Explained Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjnQKXNPsk4"]How a Radial Engine Works - Explained Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R71Xhrkc3EQ"]How a Radial Engine Works - Explained Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]
I have a bunch of model planes from WW2, I acquired them from a very nice Veteran at a Veteran's day rummage sale a few years ago.
They were free to me with the condition that i appreciate them and take care of them.
I figure the best way to appreciate any kind of vehicle is to know everything one can possibly know about it, so who can tell me everything about WW2 planes??
I want to know all about WW2 Tanks too if anyone knows a great bit about them.
There are a lot more than pictured but to give the idea
I live just about a mile down the road from Falcon Field here in Mesa. It's home to one of the CAF squadrons. There are a slew of aircraft located here. B17, B25, and a host of WWII fighters. They even have an operational F4 Phantom and a Mig17. Just the other day we were stopped at the light on the SE end of the runway when an F4F Helcat came in at low level across the Boeing parking lot and buzzed the runway. That plane was cooking right along
Here is a link to the 492nd Bomb Group. My friend Ernie Haar was the pilot of a B24-J named Umbriago. I met him several years ago and have had several visits with him.
I tried to "paint" some color into the last pic.
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/cgi-b...ersonnelBio&bioLetter=H&bioDir=HaarEJ&nav=c2b
Here is a model of his plane I built for him.
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/stories/912-Haar/model-photos-01.html
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/cgi-bin/pagepilot.cgi?page=492home
I tried to "paint" some color into the last pic.
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/cgi-b...ersonnelBio&bioLetter=H&bioDir=HaarEJ&nav=c2b
Here is a model of his plane I built for him.
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/stories/912-Haar/model-photos-01.html
http://www.492ndbombgroup.com/cgi-bin/pagepilot.cgi?page=492home
Were you there when the Champlin Fighter Museum was still there (before it moved to Seattle, Boeing Field I think?) They also had a lot of great planes (it was on the NE corner of the field, IIRC, whereas the CAF is on the SW corner)
http://www.skytamer.com/6.1/AZ/Mesa,Champlin.html
Cope
Fusing with fire
Check out "Glacier Girl" on youtube. and "Flight of the Keybird"
Think,.trying to recover your car, wrecked under 100' of ice after 60 years and make it fly...
You will not believe what folks will do to restore a P-38 and the keybird will make you want to kick a guy in his sweet spot..
I dig old planes... seeing them undressed is crazy. i got pics of the skins off some and it will blow your mind... (mechanics.. we are not worthy of that title)
I cant stress how much you should check out those two planes..
Think,.trying to recover your car, wrecked under 100' of ice after 60 years and make it fly...
You will not believe what folks will do to restore a P-38 and the keybird will make you want to kick a guy in his sweet spot..
I dig old planes... seeing them undressed is crazy. i got pics of the skins off some and it will blow your mind... (mechanics.. we are not worthy of that title)
I cant stress how much you should check out those two planes..
Cope
Fusing with fire
[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OeXy0IdCELk[/ame]
[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1u4YBwjQTds[/ame]
take the time and watch both, you WILL NOT regret it...
[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1u4YBwjQTds[/ame]
take the time and watch both, you WILL NOT regret it...
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
I dig old planes... seeing them undressed is crazy. i got pics of the skins off some and it will blow your mind... (mechanics.. we are not worthy of that title)
I cant stress how much you should check out those two planes..[/QUOTE]
Over the last 2 years at the facility i work at we had bwen replacing fuselage skins that had been hail damaged on our regional aircraft. I would have loved to had taken and shared pictures of all that, but the company was adamant about not taking pictures of the aircraft in that condition being repaired, and especially pix showing the planes exterior paint scheme livery were not to be passed around on social media.
Needless to say it takes a 24/7 crew of folks roughly 30 days to reskin the upper side of one fuselage, and reskin the tops of the elevators and horizontal stabilizer skins. I was required to fabricate and build a pair of steel fixtures to mount the elevators in so they could be reskinned without warping. These also had to be certified for use by the aircraft manufacturer, and local FAA.
Good times man good times.
I cant stress how much you should check out those two planes..[/QUOTE]
Over the last 2 years at the facility i work at we had bwen replacing fuselage skins that had been hail damaged on our regional aircraft. I would have loved to had taken and shared pictures of all that, but the company was adamant about not taking pictures of the aircraft in that condition being repaired, and especially pix showing the planes exterior paint scheme livery were not to be passed around on social media.
Needless to say it takes a 24/7 crew of folks roughly 30 days to reskin the upper side of one fuselage, and reskin the tops of the elevators and horizontal stabilizer skins. I was required to fabricate and build a pair of steel fixtures to mount the elevators in so they could be reskinned without warping. These also had to be certified for use by the aircraft manufacturer, and local FAA.
Good times man good times.
Dusterndart340
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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I retired from an aerospace extrusion manufacturing mill; we sold various profiles to a business in Colorado Springs called West Pac Restorations that restored WWII aircraft. Very cool place to visit and see them rebuilding and fabricating parts. One interesting comment I remember hearing was that there were more casualties among Air Corps than Marine Corps during the war. I heard somewhere that until the Mustang became available for bomber escort it was statistically impossible for a bomber crew to fly 25 missions over Europe without being shot down.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Don't know if ya'all have heard, B-29 "Fifi" is the world's only flying 29. She may soon have a partner. There are folks restoring B-29 "Doc" which has done some engine testing and inspections. I haven't heard when projected flight tests will get underway
http://www.b-29doc.com/
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/b-29-docs-engines-come-back-life
http://www.b-29doc.com/
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/b-29-docs-engines-come-back-life
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