No Crank, No Lights, No Click, Battery Not Dead?

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Dodge72

Dodge72

Odd one out
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Over the past week I've been having a very strange problem with my electrical on my 72 Dart (225 slant). First happened when I was over at someone's house at night. Went I went back to my car and opened the door, the dome light didn't come on. Weird. I turn the key and there's no E-brake or oil dummy light, no 'click' of the starter, nothing. Had to be driven home. Friend takes the battery the next morning and recharges it at the auto store. They said it only took about 10 minutes to fully charge. Hook it back up, starts fine, I drive home.

Next time I got off of a short shift at work (4-5 hours) after driving it all day. I go and start it, same thing. No lights, no click, no crank. Jumping the battery did absolutely nothing. Showed it had about 12.9 volts with key in the 'on' position. Left it at work until the next morning. Again, disconnected the battery cables, saw the POS+ at the starter was loose and tightened it. Reconnected and started it up. I have not checked cranking volts when it actually 'comes back' alive.

The pattern continues. After about 5 hours (I timed it) the car acts as if I left the headlights on full blast for an entire day. Even after driving it for a couple hours throughout the day it will simply cut off. I have tried scrubbing the terminals and clamps and I am still having issues. It seems as though if I completely disconnect the battery for a few minutes and then reconnect it, the lights come back on. Engine cranks good, idles and drives like nothing happens.

More info: The ammeter seems to be recharging pretty harshly whenever I start up the car, pointing towards 30+ for a couple of seconds before dropping back down to neutral. Before it 'died' on me today, it took quite a bit of cranking to get her started, even though I only left the car for probably half an hour at most. The battery is a NAPA battery and dated June of 2013. Alternator is a newer 60 amp one from NAPA, and I have a 95 Dakota mini-starter. I have tried checking for any lights that would be on but can't find any. Only light dead on the car is the little light for the trunk. I have no idea what is causing this...any info would be appreciated. It's late at night as I write this so I can do more tomorrow.
 
From what you described, I would expect to find a failed connector at the fusible links service disconnect. Battery terminals rarely fail to the point that you cant get a dome lamp and starter relay click. That connector right outside the bulkhead connections can.
Come and go continuity with temperature change too.
 
As mentioned before -check fusible link. Also make sure where the link connects that the snaps that hold the middle together is tight. wiggle the link and see if you get a connection. I would also look at the wires going thru the firewall there is one wire that that carries the main power to the ammeter and unless cleaned over the last 40 + years may have the infamous green corrosion buildup. Being a slant six you will have more access to get to this "Bulkhead disconnect". You would want to separate the plugs from the firewall and clean them out really good. Once clean, get some dielectric grease and squeeze some into each cavity to stop this from happening again. My final suggestion - Old man's short test. Remove the negative cable from the battery. Take a test light and see if you touch one lead to the battery and the other lead to the cable you just removed and see if the light goes on. If everything is off , doors shut etc. the light should not light!
I'm leaning towards the bulkhead disconnect! Good Luck
 
^^As the folks above have said^^


It is time to "dig in" and do some looking

First, do you have a factory shop manual? Posted many many times. Go to MyMopar and download one

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

There are factory wiring diagrams in section 8 of the manuals, but you can also download what are sometimes simplified diagrams from the same site

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=24

Take these aftermarket diagrams with a grain of salt.......they are sometimes not complete, (options) and sometimes leave out connectors, etc. There are sometimes easier to follow

Also READ this article

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

as well as the one on headlights

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

The ammeter article has a very informative simplified diagram, posted below This is a VERY good functional overview of factory wiring "path"

Follow along "the path." Each one of the points is a "point of failure" for losing power.

Battery clamps to battery posts, the cables themselves, and the eyelet connections

From battery to starter relay, make sure that cable and connections are good and clean and tight

From the starter relay the FUSIBLE LINK goes through a terminal in the BULKHEAD CONNECTOR. From there (RED) goes to AMMETER, through the ammeter, and out on BLACK.

Notice the WELDED SPLICE in the black wire. This is a factory splice in the black ammeter wire a few inches from the ammeter, up under the dash, taped up in the harness

From that splice branches out to the headlight switch, the fuse panel "hot" buss, and power to the ignition switch.

EVERY POINT in this circuit path is a point of FAILURE. Please READ that Mad article.

The likely suspects are all right there.........crappy battery connections / cables, fuse link, bulkhead connector, problems at the ammeter, and rare BUT HAS HAPPENED is failure of the welded splice!!!! In my lifetime, I've been involved with about 1/2 dozen cars in which that splice FAILED

amp-ga18.jpg
 
I had an issue like this on a different car, it was a bad ground cable from the battery. It worked fine sometimes, but was corroded enough that when everything warmed up nothing electrical worked. Replaced the ground and it's been fine since.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Strange thing...a day or so ago when I left it "dead" in the driveway after I headed off to work, I came back that next morning and opened the door. Dome light did come on, and she started without any problems. Well that's awfully weird, I didn't touch a darned thing! Nonetheless I went through the diagram starting at the battery. Wiggled connections, made sure everything was nice and tight. Got to the fusible link and it's connection to the ammeter red wire. Began to fiddle with that, pushing it together and twisting it. Heard a very tiny 'click' when I did that. They feel pretty tight together. Crawled under the dash this time to try and look for any other problems. I'm surprised to see my under dash very clean, with no corrosion at all and from what I could tell, no loose connections. This past day or so I've been driving it around for errands, drove it to work, and after overnight sitting everything came back on. I'm thinking it was that little 'click' from the ammeter to the fusible link that got a better connection. Will be driving it again tonight for work (I work closing shift) and I'm thinking I should be alright. If not, well....you'll hear from me again lol!
 
Dodge72 said:
Thanks for all the replies. Strange thing...a day or so ago when I left it "dead" in the driveway after I headed off to work, I came back that next morning and opened the door. Dome light did come on, and she started without any problems. Well that's awfully weird, I didn't touch a darned thing! Nonetheless I went through the diagram starting at the battery. Wiggled connections, made sure everything was nice and tight. Got to the fusible link and it's connection to the ammeter red wire. Began to fiddle with that, pushing it together and twisting it. Heard a very tiny 'click' when I did that. They feel pretty tight together. Crawled under the dash this time to try and look for any other problems. I'm surprised to see my under dash very clean, with no corrosion at all and from what I could tell, no loose connections. This past day or so I've been driving it around for errands, drove it to work, and after overnight sitting everything came back on. I'm thinking it was that little 'click' from the ammeter to the fusible link that got a better connection. Will be driving it again tonight for work (I work closing shift) and I'm thinking I should be alright. If not, well....you'll hear from me again lol!
Click to expand...
You may have found your problem but don't rule out a bad battery.I had a battery a couple years old and the terminal inside the case was broken.It would start for a while then one day nothing no click,lights nothing.I would twist on the terminal while some one turned the key over to start it,then it would start normal for a week or so but it got so bad I had to twist the terminal every time before I replaced it.
 
Update, both good news and bad news. Bad news.....problem came back, after a closing shift at work of course! Had to leave it overnight. Came back later and took the battery over to get tested. Tested "good, but needed a charge." only took 20 minutes to charge. Hooked it back up, and some light came back on. Huh.

Went into my work and ended up chatting with a couple people for about 20 minutes. Came back....no dome light, no click, nothing! Never had it gone away so fast! Frustrated, I began to look underneath, look at my pathway again. Someone who was with me took my multimeter and began to test a few points. I was wiggling connections on the bulkhead connector when I heard a 'zap', and saw my done light flash back on! "...The lights back on! What did you do?"

All he did was take the positive multimeter prong and touched it to a connection from the starter relay to the positive battery. It arced on something else connected to the relay.

Managed to drive it back home. But that did something very weird to my gauges. My gas gauge suddenly stopped working ( update: it's working again after this morning firing it up) and my ammeter isn't showing that I'm getting my battery recharged. If I were to use a turn signal driving, it was slow and acted like I was idling with the largest load to the system. It only shows that there is a significant load on the electrical system ( needle pointing towards -20) and if I hit the gas, it fails to go into the positive recharge area of the gauge. I don't know if that's an accurate reading or not, and definitely wouldn't want to run on just the battery if the alternator can't charge! I will be cleaning up connections at the relay, possibly even replacing it. I hope I didn't fry anything when that arced! My fuses are all intact as well. Didn't see any smoke.
 
I would clean up the bulkhead connections and make sure they are good and clean...
 
Dodge72 said:
Update, both good news and bad news. Bad news.....problem came back,
.
Click to expand...

Re-read my earlier post and get to work. The bulkhead connector is usually at the root of major electrical problems
 
67Dart273 said:
Re-read my earlier post and get to work. The bulkhead connector is usually at the root of major electrical problems
Click to expand...

Also, I don't remember if it applies you your car, and Redfish as posted this......there's an engine harness disconnect on later models. This is a white plastic connector and in a few words is a POS, AKA "Big Trouble."

Also carefully check the ignition switch connector
 
So I've read that MAD article multiple times. It's good info no doubt, and I'm thinking since I'm chasing my tail upstream of the bulkhead connector and underneath the dash, it's time to start looking hard at those issues. To answer your question, yes, between my red ammeter wire and the fusible link there is some sort of long, cylindrical plastic connector that I really can't seem to make any sense of. How do you detach it or even possibly remove it from the system if it's big trouble?

And from that article....it talks of bypassing the ammeter. Is it possible to detach the ammeter and do these modifications without removing the entire dash cluster? I'm a real novice when it comes to electrical (I know how to solder wires together and I have a multimeter to check for voltage), so a little more info on the topic would be great. I'll be getting some pictures of my bulkhead connectors and go from there. How would I know if my ammeter, fusible link, or even welded splice has failed? Seeing corrosion is one thing, but how do I test/check for failure?
 
Looked at my bulkhead connections. Ones for the negative and positive ammeter were kinda corroded, so I cleaned then up the best I could. No melted connections though....no other connections were corroded, and at most they we're dusty.
 
Went through a continuity test through the circuit. Turned the key on (car currently has "no power" due to this mystery short), and went from battery, to relay, to starter, to bulkhead, under dash, to ammeter. Power all the way up through the bulkhead connector, then nothing. No voltage readings from ammeter. Something under the dash is doing this, or perhaps it's the ammeter itself? I "think" I saw my welded splice (little thing of wires taped up) but I did not cut open the tape to further examine it...I will do more once the sun comes back up tomorrow. Got pictures of my ammeter connections and they don't look corroded or brunt (although one bolt was a little dirtier), and feeling up there they were nice and tight. Wish I could continue because it might just "fix" itself tomorrow morning....happened today! Car dead in the night, went out this morning and light comes on, able to start.

My bulkhead connectors:
13151759_1480127275383040_5329669445781634478_n.jpg




Bulkhead plug...corroded one was the ammeter:
13094177_1480127258716375_3715084785287254125_n.jpg



Finally, my ammeter connections:

13082765_1480127288716372_2342090631888769039_n.jpg
 
That green corroded wire in the bulkhead you said was the ammeter could be losing connection and your problem.Clean that up and check again
 
What you want to do is try an simulate "as it happened" conditions. I realize this can be difficult, as you can "bump" or wiggle something and complete a bad circuit. You can use that to your advantage.

Be very careful with the cluster out as the ammeter wires are very much "hot" and UNFUSED except for the poor protection of the fuse link.

Your main points of interest are right in the mad article diagram:

Catalog

amp-ga18.jpg


So, how to check this?

Figure a way to lay the cluster out so you can get to it safely, IE lay it down on cardboard, towels, etc to protect it, and make sure the ammeter connections are "safe."

Hook everything up "per normal" except......I would provide an "emergency disconnect."

One way is to disconnect the battery ground, and then re-ground the battery using a booster cable so you can quickly pull it off.

Another way that is BETTER if you can utilize this, is to ground the battery with an inline "big bulb". I use an old tail/ stop lamp. This provides a current limiter so that an accidental short will not burn up anything.

Now with everything hooked up, turn on the headlights. Does anything light? anything at all?

Take your meter and check from the battery right through the MAD diagram. Start at the STARTER RELAY BATTERY STUD. Voltage there?

Follow the fuse link to the BULKHEAD CONNECTOR. Voltage there?

Next, the interior end of the connector can be difficult. So go to the RED terminal of the ammeter

Next go to the BLACK terminal of the ammeter? Nothing there? Tear apart the ammeter

Let's say you DO have power at the black terminal. The next thing in line is the WELDED SPLICE

You have two choices.....either cut open the harness, or check the "splice output"

Where does it go? Goes to......

the headlight switch

the fuse box hot buss

the input power to the ignition switch

and out to the alternator output stud.

Check all of those places. IF SOME of them don't have power and others do, the SPLICE is the problem
 
Thank you very much 67Dart273 for how to check it. As I figured, my car happily cranked over and started for me today. Hmm.....this problem only seems to happen if I were to drive it for a little while, let it completely warm up ( half hour or more) and then let it sit for a couple hours after that. If I leave it on the driveway, I have never seen it just fizz out before even starting it that day. I'll drive it around town and then park it in the driveway for this afternoon, hopefully I can get my problem to return so I can retest it. Last night I had power to my bulkhead connector but NOT my ammeter. I'll go back and check my other connections from the welded splice to confirm any diagnosis and update it here.
 
If you did not have power "to" the ammeter that is on the red wire, the problem HAS to be right in the bulkhead connector. Again, follow the "path" outlined in the simplified diagram. Putting a load on the system and "wiggling" stuff usually points up troubles like this.

It surely must be right there in the area of the fuse link.....bulkhead connector....and ammeter

DON'T NEGLECT the ammeter wire ring terminals (Or any other terminal!!) The connection can fail INSIDE the molded on connector
 
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