I think I found my vibration problem

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Bill, did you tell Kenny at PTC and the guy at Hughes that you had the B&M 10237 flexplate on it? If so and they know what their doing they'd have known you didn't need those weights.

I also recommended earlier, as did Crash520 in post #27, that you should take all the fan drive belts off and run it and see if it still vibrates. I have seen guys tear good engines down because of a vibration only to not find a problem except a slightly bent shaft on the water pump, PS pump, or alternator causing the problem. It's something that takes 10 minutes to test
 
skep419 said:
2001128c.jpg

There is a bolt on weight to this balancer.
Would make sure it's there.

Don't think your quite understanding the externally balanced torque converter options. 2 ways it can be weighted.

1. Weight on torque converter.
2. Special b&m flex plate. (Which you have)
Only one of the above is needed.
Click to expand...
 
I don't remember if I told Kenny I had that flexplate. Will call him Monday. I have taken the belts off and ran the engine. Water pump is new as is the alt. vibration still there.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Ok. Not being argumentative, just continuing the discussion.

You say you pulled off a balancer that had the weight on it. Did you run the engine with that balancer? Was it vibrating with that old balancer?

Have you LOOKED at the crankshaft to verify (there's that word again) it is cast, or are you assuming it is cast because you pulled off a cast crank balancer?

What I am getting at is, if you are going on the assumption it is cast because you pulled a cast crank balancer off, you may still be able to fix the problem with the right balancer/flexplate.

I think if you have not verified the crank with your own eyes, it's time to think about pulling the pan.

Lets not get caught up with all of this yet: ("Lets assume that this guy who put this engine together didn't balance the engine, which I can almost know for a fact he didn't.....")

Since we have not verified for 100% SURE which crank you have, lets ASSUME this can still be fixed rather easily and cheaply. Doesn't that sound better than possibly jumping the gun?

I think at this point, pulling the pan is the way to go. We can help you identify which crank you have. That's no sweat.



Yup. So many things in question. This is
Click to expand...

RRR, I pulled off the factory balancer as pictured in post # 46. The cone damper. I replaced it because I thought it was bad. Motor did vibrate when it was on. I replaced it with the 200-1128 and I left the weights on. As far as the crank goes, when I bought the engine, it had not been apart yet. It had the cast crank damper on it. I took the crank to the machine shop to be checked when the engine was tore down. What came factory in that engine is what should be in there. I don't imagine he switched the crank on me. Have I verified the crank personally since the engine has been in the car, no. At this point I am not going to pull the pan to verify this while it is in the car. I don't think It will come off while in the car. If I pull the engine to verify the crank, it will be gone through. I am almost sure that is a cast crank. I will not be pulling the engine till this fall. I will check it then to make sure. If it isn't a cast, then I will go from there.
 
skep419 said:
2001128c.jpg

There is a bolt on weight to this balancer.
Would make sure it's there.

Don't think your quite understanding the externally balanced torque converter options. 2 ways it can be weighted.

1. Weight on torque converter.
2. Special b&m flex plate. (Which you have)
Only one of the above is needed.
Click to expand...

I probably don't understand the external balance thing. If I have an external balance damper on the front of the crank and a 10237 flexplate on the back, is that too much. Should I only have one of these. maybe that is where the problem is. I don't know. Skep mentioned that only one of these is needed.
 
Bad Sport said:
No, you need the correct piece on each end of the crank.
Click to expand...

well that is what I have along with a converter with no weights on it. Still coming back to the internals not being balanced and who knows what is in there. I would almost bet the crank is cast. don't know why he would have changed that because he wouldn't have had another one and no reason to change a cast for a forged one.
 
Just an FYI, TD, if it has Keith Black pistons in it, then the piston + pin weight is around 140-150 grams less per slug than the stock pistons and pins. That will reduce the bobweight by somewhere in the 6-8% range (just off the top of my head), and that will make it imbalanced... not horribly, but still definitely imbalanced. The good news is that balancing the crank to this lower bobweight will involve removing material from the crank and not require adding Mallory metal.

As for having imbalanced parts at the front and back (damper + flexplate/TC), that is absolutely normal. You should indeed have imbalanced parts at both ends.

And FWIW, 'externally balanced' is a bit of a misnomer..... it really should be called 'partially external balanced'. The cast crank material is lighter, and consequently, the front and rear counterweights can't be made big enough to properly balance against the stock pistons, pins, rods, etc., and still fit inside the crankcase and journal size limitations. So some portions of the front and rear end counterweights (which are the biggest ones) are simply moved to the outside the crankcase.

It sounds like you have a path forward to solving this; let us know how it goes this winter!
 
nm9stheham said:
Just an FYI, TD, if it has Keith Black pistons in it, then the piston + pin weight is around 140-150 grams less per slug than the stock pistons and pins. That will reduce the bobweight by somewhere in the 6-8% range (just off the top of my head), and that will make it imbalanced... not horribly, but still definitely imbalanced. The good news is that balancing the crank to this lower bobweight will involve removing material from the crank and not require adding Mallory metal.

As for having imbalanced parts at the front and back (damper + flexplate/TC), that is absolutely normal. You should indeed have imbalanced parts at both ends.

And FWIW, 'externally balanced' is a bit of a misnomer..... it really should be called 'partially external balanced'. The cast crank material is lighter, and consequently, the front and rear counterweights can't be made big enough to properly balance against the stock pistons, pins, rods, etc., and still fit inside the crankcase and journal size limitations. So some portions of the front and rear end counterweights (which are the biggest ones) are simply moved to the outside the crankcase.

It sounds like you have a path forward to solving this; let us know how it goes this winter!
Click to expand...

yes sir, I have a path going forward. I am contemplating pulling this out and building a 360 to go in. That way I will know what I have.
 
After reading all your posts again Bill I'd bet the problem is internal. You've covered every test I can think of and that only leaves the internal parts are probably mismatched. BTW: if your going to swap to a small block why not build a stroker? If done right you'll have the power of that 440 with a lighter package. Just a thought
 
fishy68 said:
After reading all your posts again Bill I'd bet the problem is internal. You've covered every test I can think of and that only leaves the internal parts are probably mismatched. BTW: if your going to swap to a small block why not build a stroker? If done right you'll have the power of that 440 with a lighter package. Just a thought
Click to expand...
Well Tracy, that is what I am thinking. I have one more thing I am going to try and it may not be anything but I am going to put a rubber tranny mount back in there. I put a poly mount in awhile back. Maybe just maybe the rubber will absorb any vibration. I don't know. As far as the stroker, I have thought about that. Matter of fact Tyler and I talked about that this weekend. We will see.
 
You can try the rubber mount but in reality there shouldn't be any vibration to absorb if the engine is built right. Good luck Bill
 
skep419 said:
or go internally balanced and get a new balancer. (your converter should be good to go neutral balanced/just need a neutral balance flexplate)
Click to expand...

vibration fixed. Found tail shaft was 5* down and pinion was 3* down also. Tried to raise tail shaft up to 0* but was hitting the floor. So I raised the pinion angle up to 5* to be parallel and it took care of the problem.
 
Lol, now you owe your buddy/builder a case of guilt
make-up beer!!
 
So your trying to say you adjusted the pinion angle and that fixed your vibration that was there when the car wasn't moving?
 
Killer6 said:
Lol, now you owe your buddy/builder a case of guilt
make-up beer!!
Click to expand...

no, I still have a harmonic imbalance problem but I don't have the vibration. I have said all along that the vibration I have felt seems like a driveline problem.
 
replicaracer43 said:
So your trying to say you adjusted the pinion angle and that fixed your vibration that was there when the car wasn't moving?
Click to expand...

didn't say that. you did. I said with the car sitting still I had a quiver in the engine when I brought the RPM up to about 1500. The engine still has a harmonic imbalance but the vibration when driving is all but gone.
 
trudysduster said:
vibration fixed. Found tail shaft was 5* down and pinion was 3* down also. Tried to raise tail shaft up to 0* but was hitting the floor. So I raised the pinion angle up to 5* to be parallel and it took care of the problem.
Click to expand...
hey i've been reading this though , and you said that the vibration got better '' as in went away '' at higher rpm , well was it floored . had a partner ''help with a 440 once '' , he under cut the counter weights on the crank , quote '' to make it rev'' he said . it did , but it vibrated like crazy , untill you floor it . it would run up to max r's , with no issues . just putting it out there . did the guy have a lath ?
 
trudysduster said:
vibration fixed. Found tail shaft was 5* down and pinion was 3* down also. Tried to raise tail shaft up to 0* but was hitting the floor. So I raised the pinion angle up to 5* to be parallel and it took care of the problem.
Click to expand...
I was just going by what you wrote yourself.
 
None of these old engines is completely vibration free no matter how well they are balanced. The process of combustion makes vibration all on its own. So some of that in park and neutral is perfectly normal. It'll never idle like a new crapbox EFI car.

Glad you got the drive train vibration fixed.
 
trudysduster said:
no, I still have a harmonic imbalance problem but I don't have the vibration. I have said all along that the vibration I have felt seems like a driveline problem.
Click to expand...
Harmonic imbalances are vibrations. I think the problem
here is you are multi-posting this project,and losing track
of what you've shared where, when, & with who.
Many older mopars have been found to be oz. out of
balance,not grams,and mixing non-OE pistons in could
very well have made it worse.You can get your rotating
assy. balanced as is w/o trying to internally balance it, as
long as you don't plan on rod/piston changes etc., you're
set for the duration.
 
Killer6 said:
Harmonic imbalances are vibrations. I think the problem
here is you are multi-posting this project,and losing track
of what you've shared where, when, & with who.
Many older mopars have been found to be oz. out of
balance,not grams,and mixing non-OE pistons in could
very well have made it worse.You can get your rotating
assy. balanced as is w/o trying to internally balance it, as
long as you don't plan on rod/piston changes etc., you're
set for the duration.
Click to expand...

as it stands right now, I don't intend of balancing anything. I had planned on having the engine rebuilt over the winter because the vibration I had was thought to have been on the internal engine. I didn't think so. I have always maintained that I had 2 problems at the same time. I have a quiver in the engine while sitting still. that is probably the imbalance of the internals. But I have always said that the vibration that was a grind type of vibration was somewhere in the driveline. I spent 2.5 million miles in a semi and I know what a vibration in the driveline feels like. As it turns out the pinion angle and driveshaft angle was off. I took this car to a reputable spring shop and told them I had a vibration in the driveline and to check the pinion angle. They did. BUT, they didn't check the tail shaft because I didn't tell them too. They set the pinion at 3* down. what they didn't know and I didn't know was that the tail shaft was at 5* down also. so I am assuming that when I left the spring shop that the problem couldn't be in the drive line so it must be somewhere else. that is what happens when you don't know a lot about old cars. I am learning. So as of now, I no longer have a vibration grind in the driveline like I had before. I still have a very slight almost un notable one that I think is probably a u joint from running this car as it was. I am going to have the driveshaft checked next week and new joints put in and go from there. The little quiver in the engine sitting still is not enough to warrant me having this engine rebuilt and spending a couple of thousand dollars.
 
pomonamissel said:
hey i've been reading this though , and you said that the vibration got better '' as in went away '' at higher rpm , well was it floored . had a partner ''help with a 440 once '' , he under cut the counter weights on the crank , quote '' to make it rev'' he said . it did , but it vibrated like crazy , untill you floor it . it would run up to max r's , with no issues . just putting it out there . did the guy have a lath ?
Click to expand...

no he didn't have a lathe. I also know he didn't have it sent out and balanced.
 
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