What is the best way to get an overdrive auto in a 67 Barracuda?

jbc426 said:

Good luck on being able to shift a gear vendors to split gears with any efficiency. I drove Mr Angry's Black '68 Charger with a 727 and a gear vendors. The thing was ok to shift into overdrive once in 3rd, but my hat is off to anyone who could effectively split 1, 2 & 3 on a drag strip or even in a street race. There's no way the average guy could master that to make it worth doing in a race. There may be guys out there, but it is very distracting with a throttle wide open.

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I'm going to have to agree with this, there is not enough time to split 1st and 2nd in my car, usually paddling the throttle to regain traction, 2nd to third not much time to make it worth splitting either, I was just mainly looking for an OD, that GM auto looks pretty bulky though, what mods do you have to make to the torsion bar crossmember?

Carnut76 said:

I'm going to have to agree with this, there is not enough time to split 1st and 2nd in my car, usually paddling the throttle to regain traction, 2nd to third not much time to make it worth splitting either, I was just mainly looking for an OD, that GM auto looks pretty bulky though, what mods do you have to make to the torsion bar crossmember?

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I`m glad you posted on this, I`ve been wondering about the splitting thing--thanks.

To make the GV shift like lightning, I bypassed their little black box. I was very disappointed at the shift speed upon first installation. I mean, I paid all this money, and the thing sucked! So I tried it direct to 12v. POW! Holeeeey! I said, and the computer got the file13.Now if I shift it without the clutch, at WOT she barks the tires at 80mph with 295s. Under normal use I simultaneously hit the button and clutch it a little, to make it a little easier on the powertrain. But with the new split percents my rpm only drops 660rpm from 3000, so the shock is a little milder.....
With an automatic,the TC will absorb most of it.
I shift that GV under WOT without the clutch. And I only have to pull the stick one time at about the 4 or 5 second mark. The beauty of the 367 is, it only has maybe a little over 400ftlbs, so the tires can sorta keep up. That thing shifts faster and harder than anything else you can put into an A-body. Street295/50-15s, cannot keep up on the street spinning clear to past 80 mph. I have a 7000rpm shift limiter, and on a bad day, the engine is on it,all the way,non-stop; Well except for a few milliseconds at the aforementioned 4.5 second mark.I have 4.5 seconds to get ready to PULL! The other two shifts are electric, and since my car traps at 93 in the eighth,I have plenty of time to line those up. But it is close, about 2 seconds between shifts.It sounds like not much when you say it. But on the track it seems forever.

Carnut76 said:

I'm going to have to agree with this, there is not enough time to split 1st and 2nd in my car, usually paddling the throttle to regain traction, 2nd to third not much time to make it worth splitting either, I was just mainly looking for an OD, that GM auto looks pretty bulky though, what mods do you have to make to the torsion bar crossmember?

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I cut the transmission tunnel portion back from just before the closest two bolt holes on the crossmember so that the portion still spot welded to the floor of the tunnel was protruding 1/2". I then capped that with a similar contoured piece of steel and boxed it in. I also welded a 1/4" thick piece of tunnel shaped steel plate across the floor in the passenger compartment to further strengthen it.

My torsion bar cross member was spot welded in rather sparingly from the factory. I welded it to the floor solidly and have the US Cartool subframe connectors as well.

Since I've done mine, US Cartool has come out with a easy-fit kit to install the 200R4 in any Mopar. The nice thing about it, is with a little welding and grinding, you could reverse the conversion and no one would ever know. When I see all the rust repair people have to do to the majority of the Mopars still out there, Its really no big deal. If you don't have a mig welder, you ould take the car to a muffler shop or prep the car at home and hire a mobile welding service to come over and do the welding in an hour or two.

AJ/FormS said:

...That thing shifts faster and harder than anything else you can put into an A-body.

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I don't know. My 200R4 hits second virtually instantly and very firmly. It doesn't shock the drivetrain, but the car doesn't even have time to unload the squat one bit between shifts.

Bring your car out to Track Day at Willow Springs the Thursday before Spring Fling this year and lets compare. I know the owner of this Hellcat is a believer now.

jbc426 said:

I am not using the stock console, but Treblig has modified his stock console and shifter on his 200R4 conversion.

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Yes, I documented the modification with as much detail as time would allow (here on FABO)!! I love the original console and went out of my way to keep it. It really isn't that hard if you have some fabrication skills. I accomplished most of the work before I even swapped out the tranny and only had a few of days down time (the Barracuda is my daily driver). It all works great and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I (personally) wouldn't enjoy shifting gears (gear splitting) all the time. I'm a simple guy with simple needs!!

Treblig

Building a street car with 400-450 HP, 3.55 gears and a 727. GVOD will make 3/over final drive ratio 2.76
Not going to use the automatic OD feature since this will be a manual shift reverse valve body.
65 MPH @ 3030 RPM in 3rd and 2350 RPM in 3/over. All I need is 1, 2, 3, OD...
not cheap but closest to plug and play so far... retains stock shifter, linkage, console, cross member and no cutting the tunnel.
I'd be surprised if the GV all in cost was more than a couple hundred more than buying everything to do the 200R4 and mods. It would be different if I did not already have a 727 trans and Cheetah Reverse Valve body. Will look for your write up though.

'Cuda_ragtop said:

Building a street car with 400-450 HP, 3.55 gears and a 727. GVOD will make 3/over final drive ratio 2.76
Not going to use the automatic OD feature since this will be a manual shift reverse valve body.
65 MPH @ 3030 RPM in 3rd and 2350 RPM in 3/over. All I need is 1, 2, 3, OD...
not cheap but closest to plug and play so far... retains stock shifter, linkage, console, cross member and no cutting the tunnel.
I'd be surprised if the GV all in cost was more than a couple hundred more than buying everything to do the 200R4 and mods. It would be different if I did not already have a 727 trans and Cheetah Reverse Valve body. Will look for your write up though.

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I didn't cut the tunnel at all but I did have to trim the upper cross member some. I managed to use the original console and shifter so from the inside of the car it looks totally stock. I documented everything here:

Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

I spend a total of around $1800 on everything including the tranny, adapter and torque converter. But I did the majority of the work myself. jbc426 went a different route but his turned out real nice as well. Jbc's set up is more heavy duty (way more) than mine.
I cruise at 60/65 doing about 2200 RPM in OD but I have MT Sportsman 29 X 15.00R15LT tires.
Good Luck,
Treblig

Treblig said:

I (personally) wouldn't enjoy shifting gears (gear splitting) all the time. I'm a simple guy with simple needs!!Treblig

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I didn't either, and my cam was a lil big for the OD's splits. So I now have the 3.09 low box with GVod tacked on. I can still shift exactly as before, cuz the splitter still works the same. But I don't have to, cuz the factory splits are almost perfect. So; now, I have 8 useable ratios,of which I never use more than 5, but not necessarily the same ones.
The new ratios are; GV in bold
3.09-2.41-1.91-1.50-1.40-1.09-1.00-.78od
1)When I'm in a hurry, I use the first four; 3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50,which,with 3.55s will get me 110@7000, and then I stuff it into either direct or od.
2)When I'm tooling around I use the main box; 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00.
3)When I hit the hiway, I use the first three in the main box, then split into 1.09 to finish the run to the speed limit, then into 4th in the main;
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78 -I call this the short 4th/long OD.
The 1.09 short 4th is a swing gear, sometimes I use it, sometimes not.
The starter gear is 3.55x3.09=10.97
The hiway gear is 3.55 x .78=2.77
4)Oh I almost forgot my favorite; cruising around at 2800 is 33mph in 1.92 second gear. That gear will get me to 65@5500. And the fast way there from a stop is 3.09-2.41-1.92.
This set-up has by far, been the most enjoyable.

But I have a confession to make;
Would I do it again?
No.
As many bases as this hits, I often wonder if I might get as much or more pleasure out of a straight 5-speed.
And if I could afford a do-over, it would likely be a 408/700R4,or a small-cam360/5spd M/T.Or a small-cam408/3.23/A833od. Or a.......
So for you guys that have done the 408/700R4-I'm just a little jealous

AJ/FormS said:

I didn't either, and my cam was a lil big for the OD's splits. So I now have the 3.09 low box with GVod tacked on. I can still shift exactly as before, cuz the splitter still works the same. But I don't have to, cuz the factory splits are almost perfect. So; now, I have 8 useable ratios,of which I never use more than 5, but not necessarily the same ones.
The new ratios are; GV in bold
3.09-2.41-1.91-1.50-1.40-1.09-1.00-.78od
1)When I'm in a hurry, I use the first four; 3.09-2.41-1.92-1.50,which,with 3.55s will get me 110@7000, and then I stuff it into either direct or od.
2)When I'm tooling around I use the main box; 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00.
3)When I hit the hiway, I use the first three in the main box, then split into 1.09 to finish the run to the speed limit, then into 4th in the main;
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78 -I call this the short 4th/long OD.
The 1.09 short 4th is a swing gear, sometimes I use it, sometimes not.
The starter gear is 3.55x3.09=10.97
The hiway gear is 3.55 x .78=2.77
4)Oh I almost forgot my favorite; cruising around at 2800 is 33mph in 1.92 second gear. That gear will get me to 65@5500. And the fast way there from a stop is 3.09-2.41-1.92.
This set-up has by far, been the most enjoyable.

But I have a confession to make;
Would I do it again?
No.
As many bases as this hits, I often wonder if I might get as much or more pleasure out of a straight 5-speed.
And if I could afford a do-over, it would likely be a 408/700R4,or a small-cam360/5spd M/T.Or a small-cam408/3.23/A833od. Or a.......
So for you guys that have done the 408/700R4-I'm just a little jealous

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The problem with the 700R4 is it needs a computer to work, it takes more power to spin, is significantly larger, doesn't have the lower 1st gear ratio and is heavier as well. It can be built to handle much more power though.

If you are going to run a high-powered big block, a Hemi or a with a power adder, A built-up 700R4 is the only way to go. For anything under 1000 hp, ta built 200R4 is the way to go.

The 700R4 is just like the 2004R in that it can be used without a computer if you use a non lock up torque converter. My 2004R (in my Barracuda) uses a non lock up converter so I can just drive it like a regular car and the trans makes all the shifts on its' own. Yes, I lose 1 - 2 miles per gallon because the 5th gear (converter lock up) doesn't function but it makes it so easy to drive and less electrical to hook up. The 700R4 that I have in my son's '46 Chevy also uses a non lock up converter (no computer or wiring). He drives his car everyday with no issues as well.

Treblig

Treblig said:

I spend a total of around $1800 on everything including the tranny, adapter and torque converter.

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Dang I have about twice that in my 200-4R build so far. But it's being built for a 10 second car so some of the parts were very expensive.

Treblig said:

The 700R4 is just like the 2004R in that it can be used without a computer if you use a non lock up torque converter. My 2004R (in my Barracuda) uses a non lock up converter so I can just drive it like a regular car and the trans makes all the shifts on its' own. Yes, I lose 1 - 2 miles per gallon because the 5th gear (converter lock up) doesn't function but it makes it so easy to drive and less electrical to hook up. The 700R4 that I have in my son's '46 Chevy also uses a non lock up converter (no computer or wiring). He drives his car everyday with no issues as well.
Treblig

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Thanks for catching the non-computer function of the 700R4, Treblig. The lock-up function adds weight to the reciprocating assembly too, so for a drag only car, a guy might want to consider that.

I use a normally open switch in the 4th gear circuit along with a simple toggle switch wired with 12 Volts to engage or dis-engage the lock-up feature. This way it only will lock in 4th gear.

It is very much like having a 5th gear, as even with a highly efficient, high-stall 3600 rpm torque converter, there is still about 350 rpm drop when cruising at freeway speeds.

jbc426 said:

Thanks for catching the non-computer function of the 700R4, Treblig. The lock-up function adds weight to the reciprocating assembly too, so for a drag only car, a guy might want to consider that.

I use a normally open switch in the 4th gear circuit along with a simple toggle switch wired with 12 Volts to engage or dis-engage the lock-up feature. This way it only will lock in 4th gear.

It is very much like having a 5th gear, as even with a highly efficient, high-stall 3600 rpm torque converter, there is still about 350 rpm drop when cruising at freeway speeds.


View attachment 1715000443

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You really have a nice set up!! Is there such a thing as "Transmission Envy"????

treblig

ocdart said:

I'm currently in the middle of my '69 Dart build with an Extreme Automatics built 200-4R, manual-shift, reverse-pattern, and lock-up converter. I'm planning on 4.30 gears.
Fun on the street and will be the same as 2.88s on the freeway with the 0.67 overdrive of the 200-4R.
And it all fits in the stock A-body tunnel.

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Would really like to know the ball park cost for this setup. What shifter are you planning to use? Non-console?
LU converter on a switch?

Here's a build thread I started on mine. Not much progress since the car was wrecked and in the body shop currently. I listed some of the parts that I've bought to make it all work down towards the bottom of the thread.

200-4R Behind a 340 and Reid Bellhousing Build

I talked to a very competent trans builder a couple of days ago, he called the 200r4 a tinker toy and would likely burn up at the track if you thrashed on out on the street, basically he said they were good but not for longevity because the clutch packs, and other components are still small and aren't made of magic material, anyone have any hard miles on theirs yet to debunk this? He said a 4L80e would be a better build but not sure it would fit in the tunnel, parts are adding up fast, the Gear Vendors is starting to look real good again. It is a .78 OD I believe.

Carnut76 said:

I talked to a very competent trans builder a couple of days ago, he called the 200r4 a tinker toy and would likely burn up at the track if you thrashed on out on the street, basically he said they were good but not for longevity because the clutch packs, and other components are still small and aren't made of magic material, anyone have any hard miles on theirs yet to debunk this? He said a 4L80e would be a better build but not sure it would fit in the tunnel, parts are adding up fast, the Gear Vendors is starting to look real good again. It is a .78 OD I believe.

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Sounds like he's not too competent about building strong long lasting 200R4's. There are a few that are competent at building them and lots of guys running them for years successfully both on the street and at the track.

With only a .78 OD ratio, you might just as well skip the overdrive upgrade.

Carnut76 said:

I talked to a very competent trans builder a couple of days ago, he called the 200r4 a tinker toy and would likely burn up at the track if you thrashed on out on the street, basically he said they were good but not for longevity because the clutch packs, and other components are still small and aren't made of magic material, anyone have any hard miles on theirs yet to debunk this? He said a 4L80e would be a better build but not sure it would fit in the tunnel, parts are adding up fast, the Gear Vendors is starting to look real good again. It is a .78 OD I believe.

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Then I'd say that guy isn't a competent trans builder. Yes there are stouter options than the 200-4R but those options usually end up needing the tunnel cut to fit. Plus the .67 overdrive is awesome. There's a guy here who runs an RX-7 that was 360 powered and is now LS powered. Can't think of his name but he ran in drag week twice, over 1000 passes and no issues on his 200-4R in his 10 second ride. He runs an extreme automatics trans. If they aren't built right, they won't last. If they're built right, they'll last and will handle up to 1,000 hp. People are more ignorant about these transmissions than you can believe.

It could be just his opinion, he is actually a very competent builder and knows the owner of Extreme very well, he build transmissions for a couple of the tv street outlaw guys and a bunch of local racers here Drag and stock car guys, very reputable. I wanted to see if anyone had their own experience so far just for my own research, it's a big commitment work and money wise. Trying to weigh out the pros and cons.

If he knows the owner of Extreme very well, then he should know they can be built to last. So that surprises me he'd say that. But anyhow, if you don't mind cutting the tunnel, then maybe you ought to look at a bigger trans. It's a big commitment either way. Doesn't the 4l80E need to be computer controlled? May not be a big deal but something you have to consider.

The 4L80E can be converted to manual shift with a trans brake etc. with a valve body that Extreme offers for about a thousand bucks otherwise you can buy a stand alone setup for about 500. I probably can get a 200R4 that will hold up Extreme has one they advertise to hold 700 hp for 2300.00 but add the cross-member, bell housing, adapter, converter, then compare to the cost of the GV behind my 727, the economics part of me is asking if the extra 200-300 rpm difference you get from a .78 OD vs a .67 is worth the extra 2k bucks?

Lets say you have a hypothetical engine that makes 375 hp. This is enough engine to go 108 in the qtr.pulling 3675# This is a nice easy 360 build.
The peak power might come in at 5600, and with good heads can rev out to say 6200 before dropping off.

ComboA)Let's say you had a regular 904 with ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00. The splits are .59-.69. So the rpm drops will be to, 3558 and 4278,for powerband requirements of 2642/1722, or about 2182 average. So you have to put the right bolt-ons to make that happen.
To trap well,say at 5800 plus slip, you would need about 4.30s. These gears will get you a starter gear of 10.54, and 65=3472 plus slip.That's what it will take with the 904.

Combo B)Now, let's work it out with the 4L80
The ratios are 3.06-1.63-1.00-.70 and splits of .53-.61-.70od. Let's say same 6200 rpm shifts; the drops are to;3180 and 3660, for a powerband requirement of and 2820/2540 or about 2680 average.
To trap at 5800 plus slip ,will require 4.30s.
The starter gear is 13.29, and 65=2430plus slip.

ComboC) Finally lets put a GVOD behind an A999, and split gears.
The ratios are 2.74-2.14-1.54-1.20-1.00-.78od, and splits of .78-.72-.78-.83-.78od Same 6200 shifts; the drops are to 4836-4464-4836-5146-4836 The powereband requirement will be from 1488 rpm
To trap as before but now in second over,ratio 1.20, will require a rear gear of 3.55s.
The starter gear will be 9.73, and 65=2236

Now compare the numbers and select a tranny based on your useage.
Obviously a street/strip car would like either of the second two options rather than Combo A).
But which one?
Well Combo B) looks pretty good. But I can tell you two things. 1) the 13.29 is a ridiculously low street starter gear, and 2) the powerband requirement of 2680 is still pretty wide.
Combo C) cures the starter gear very nicely, and with a 2236 cruise rpm, that's nice also. But best of all is the powerband requirement of just 1488rpm.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/TechArticles/land_dyno.jpg
Take a look at a typical dyno graph. On this one the average hp over 1488 rpm centered on the peak, is about 420hp. Now look at it again with a 2680 average PB; does it look like around 345 hp average?
Which tranny do you think will be faster, and which one are you liking.

And BTW, you could gear combo C) up 20% to 4.30s like the others and take advantage of the short 5thgear. The new starter would be 11.78, and 65=2708. This would tighten up the powerband yet further. . Furthermore, the very small difference between the peak power and the average power, would allow you to detune the engine one cam-size for sure, maybe more: and still go as quick or quicker as the 4L80.

The point is do not underestimate the transmission. The right one can turn your mild streeter into a dragon-slayer;the wrong one into a turd.

Carnut76 said:

The 4L80E can be converted to manual shift with a trans brake etc. with a valve body that Extreme offers for about a thousand bucks otherwise you can buy a stand alone setup for about 500. I probably can get a 200R4 that will hold up Extreme has one they advertise to hold 700 hp for 2300.00 but add the cross-member, bell housing, adapter, converter, then compare to the cost of the GV behind my 727, the economics part of me is asking if the extra 200-300 rpm difference you get from a .78 OD vs a .67 is worth the extra 2k bucks?

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Remember that if you use a lockup converter, that's another 200-300 rpm gain. So really you're gaining 400-600 rpm over the GV unit, possibly more depending on how loose of a converter is used. The GV will add another 30-50 lbs too. You can sell your existing trans and converter for a little bit of something for return as well. What I've got in my 200-4R build minus what I'll sell the trans for will be a wash vs the price of the GV unit.