What is the best way to get an overdrive auto in a 67 Barracuda?

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That's a ton of info, going to have to examine that closer after work tomorrow, my next question was answered, the weight difference which is signifigant. I need at least a 2800 rpm stall, I'm running a 440 with a 727 and 355 gears, I ran a 12.40 in the quarter blowing the nitto drag radials off at the line and with some bad high rpm breakup issues, car was going through the finish line at 6700. Cruising down the road it's around 3600 at 55 mph. Very uncomfortable. I appreciate the information.
 
That's a ton of info, going to have to examine that closer after work tomorrow, my next question was answered, the weight difference which is signifigant. I need at least a 2800 rpm stall, I'm running a 440 with a 727 and 355 gears, I ran a 12.40 in the quarter blowing the nitto drag radials off at the line and with some bad high rpm breakup issues, car was going through the finish line at 6700. Cruising down the road it's around 3600 at 55 mph. Very uncomfortable. I appreciate the information.

Do you run a short tire? Mine runs 3100 rpm at 60 mph with 4.10's and 28" tire with a 5500 stall converter. Out of curiosity, what was your mph through the traps?
 
Lets say you have a hypothetical engine that makes 375 hp. This is enough engine to go 108 in the qtr.pulling 3675# This is a nice easy 360 build.
The peak power might come in at 5600, and with good heads can rev out to say 6200 before choking.

ComboA) Let's say you had a regular 904 with ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00. The splits are .59-.69. So the rpm drops will be to 3558,and 4278,for powerband requirements of 2642/1722, or about 2182 average. So you have to put the right bolt-ons to make that happen.
To trap well,say at 5800 plus slip, you would need about 4.30s. These gears will get you a starter gear of 10.54, and 65=3472 plus slip.That's what it will take with the 904.

Combo B) Now, let's work it out with the 4L80
The ratios are 3.06-1.63-1.00-.70 and splits of .53-.61-.70od. Let's say same 6200 rpm shifts; the drops are to;3180 and 3660, for a powerband requirement of 2820/2540 or about 2680 average.
To trap at 5800 plus slip ,will require 4.30s.
The starter gear is 13.29, and 65=2430plus slip.

ComboC) Finally lets put a GVOD behind an A999, and split gears.
The ratios are 2.74-2.14-1.54-1.20-1.00-.78od, and splits of .78-.72-.78-.83-.78 Same 6200 shifts; the drops are to 4836-4464-4836-5146-4836 The powereband requirement will be about 1488 rpm
To trap as before, but now in second-over (ratio 1.20) will require a rear gear of 3.55s.
The starter gear will be 9.73, and 65=2236

Now compare the numbers and select a tranny based on your useage.
Obviously a street/strip car would like either of the second two options rather than Combo A).
But which one?
Well Combo B) looks pretty good. But I can tell you two things. 1) the 13.29 is a ridiculous street starter gear. and 2) the powerband requirement of 2680 is still pretty wide.
Combo C) cures the starter gear very nicely, and with a 2236 cruiser gear, that's nice also. But best of all is the powerband requirement of just 1488rpm.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/TechArticles/land_dyno.jpg
Take a look at a typical dyno graph. On this one the average hp over 1488 rpm, centered on the peak, is about 420hp. Now look at it again with a 2680 average PB; does it look like 345 hp average?
Which tranny do you think will be faster, and which one are you liking.

And BTW, you could gear combo C) up 20% to 4.30s like the others and take advantage of the short 5thgear. The new starter would be 11.78, and 65=2708. This would tighten up the powerband yet further. . Furthermore, the very small difference between the peak power and the average power, would allow you to detune the engine one cam-size for sure, maybe more.

The point is do not underestimate the transmission. The right one can turn your mild streeter into a dragon-slayer;the wrong one into a turd.

If you have a different engine, than noted above, you will have to work the numbers out for your combo. There may come a point that the tranny choice changes. For instance; if your combo requires a 4.10 to trap well, then the 4L80 is back in the game with a 12.67 starter gear, and 65=2318rpm
And if you have a much bigger engine, that pulls like a freight-train, 5 gears is kindof overkill.
Splitting gears works well on small engines wanting to work the top of the curve , and they will run a higher mph than expected, on account of the higher average horsepower put down during the run.
I'm not trying to steer you towards a GV. A GV may not be the answer for everybody. But I tell you what; it made my 367 with a 223* cam really come alive. And there was a time I had the combo geared like a 1.97 finaldrive, and 65mph was under 1600 rpm, and she was a fuel sipper.
By the same token, I think the 4L80 has a very nice ratio spread for a bigger engine. You just kindof have to build the engine to take advantage of them, so you don't have to run big gears like 4.30s with 27/28 inch tires.The 13.29 starter-gear is just too deep, unless you have taller tires, like 31/32s ,soooooo it could make a great drag-race tranny.
 
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I'm running a 440 with a 727 and 355 gears, I ran a 12.40 in the quarter going through the finish line at 6700. Cruising down the road it's around 3600 at 55 mph. Very uncomfortable. I appreciate the information.
Some numbers here are not computing.
mph= (rpm x T.C.)/(1056 x R1xR2) therefore 55=3600 x tc/(1056 x 3.55 x R2
And I get a Tire Circumference of 57.27 inches, which is an 18.23 inch tall tire.
But if figure the 3600 is a typo, for 2600, then I get a 79.3 inch tc which is a 25.24 tire. That's a pretty short tire for a 408!
I ran that combo for exactly 2 summers and I have to agree 2600@56 is very uncomfortable.
But I love the 3.55s around town.

Another number that I'm having trouble with is the 6700 trap rpm,with 3.55s
My math is saying 136mph in direct, and 94 in third with,both 5% TC slip, and those 79 inchers.o Ima guessing you had some bigger track-tires.
With 88s(28"D), I get 150/103 in third.
and 103 is pretty close for a 12.4ET
 
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I can assure you the numbers I gave are pretty close, my rear tires are 245/45/17 which is around a 26 inch tall tire. Cruising down the road it's at 36 not 26 at 55, maybe going 60 but no faster, I have mini vans passing me for pete sake. It has been a couple months since I drove the car but I know the rpms are over 3000 at rural highway speed. If I was at 2600 rpm I would not be looking at overdrives. I would be tickled if my rpms were 2600 cruising the country. Unless I have an imposter for a rear gear, I'm almost certain it's a 355, my dart had a 440 with 410 rear with the same tires and that was like driving a tractor down the road.
 
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Just for kicks if the road is clean when I get home from work I will try to get the car out and recheck my road numbers for accuracy, my speedo is off buy we checked it with my 2008 chrysler, my speedo reads 90 at 55.
 
The 4L80E can be converted to manual shift with a trans brake etc. with a valve body that Extreme offers for about a thousand bucks otherwise you can buy a stand alone setup for about 500. I probably can get a 200R4 that will hold up Extreme has one they advertise to hold 700 hp for 2300.00 but add the cross-member, bell housing, adapter, converter, then compare to the cost of the GV behind my 727, the economics part of me is asking if the extra 200-300 rpm difference you get from a .78 OD vs a .67 is worth the extra 2k bucks?


There are a few other advantages aside from the larger rpm drop in OD. The 1st gear ratio is 2.76 to 1 vs 2.5 to 1. The converter can be built to utilize a lock-up clutch system, which will drop you rpm another 250-300 rpm.

Also, I had my converter made to bolt right up to my factor flexplate without the use of any adapters. I see some of you spent several hundred dollars more on adapting the 3-bolt GM converter to your cranks. The cost was the same for my converter. I did have to provide the measurements. I opted for a top-shelf 3600 rpm stall converter with a 3 carbon fiber lock-up clutch system. The thing is friggen awesome to drive on the street and at the track with the 200R4.
 
There are a few other advantages aside from the larger rpm drop in OD. The 1st gear ratio is 2.76 to 1 vs 2.5 to 1. The converter can be built to utilize a lock-up clutch system, which will drop you rpm another 250-300 rpm.

Also, I had my converter made to bolt right up to my factor flexplate without the use of any adapters. I see some of you spent several hundred dollars more on adapting the 3-bolt GM converter to your cranks. The cost was the same for my converter. I did have to provide the measurements. I opted for a top-shelf 3600 rpm stall converter with a 3 carbon fiber lock-up clutch system. The thing is friggen awesome to drive on the street and at the track with the 200R4.
I wanted to take my car for a spin to refresh my memory on excact numbers that were in question IE rpm vs mph an so forth but the county decided to dump salt on the frosty roads this morning, lets just say driving between 55 and 65 my engine turns at an rpm which makes me very uncomfortable without getting too technical with exact numbers. I don't want to sound obtuse here but your converter is a 3600, when you are cruisin trying to keep the rpms down say under 2600 does your converter heat up or stall or does the "lockup" part of the converter prevent that? I'm not sure exactly how that works, I would like a 2800 stall but I don't want it slipping or causing excess heat at cruising speed. Does your lockup work on a switch or does it kick in automatically?
 
Here is the math
mph= (rpm x tireD x pi)/(1056x R1R2)
say 58mph =(3600rpmx26xpi)(1056x 1.0Top gear x R2 the diff gear.
Rearranging for R2 we get 1/R2 = (58x1056x1)/(3600x81.7) and then
1/R2=.20824 and finally; R2=4.80 rear gear
Now 4.80 is so far from 3.55 (35%),that one would have to conclude that something is outta whack. And really there is/are only three things it can be; 1) the speedO unit, or 2) the TC is slipping fiercely, or 3) some combination of the two.

As a comparison,my 4-speed car was set up with 3.55s and 26s, way back in '99. And the same formula spits out 2570@56mph, (or 2754rpm at 60mph). And my tach was reading about 2600@56 which is a 1% disagreement.
The math is true.
Since you calibrated your speedO with another car,If I had to guess,I'd guess your TC is slipping big-time

Well there is one other possibility, and that is a failed tranny. But you would have mentioned something about slipping gears.

So at this point, I would be proving that the assumed-to-be 3.55s really are 3.55s,lol. If they are,then I would be calibrating the tach. And if it is good, then I would be pulling that TC. 35% slip is outrageous!

It may be a little early to be shopping for an O/D

At the more typical sub-2400 rpm cruising rpm,the steady-state cruise-rpm will DROP about 150/250 rpm from the accelerating rpms.
For instance if you have a car that cruizes 2200 at 60 mph, run her up to 65 on a good throttle setting, to loc the TC. Pay very close attention to the tach, as you cross 60mph. As you approach 65, back off the throttle to a steady-state cruise, and let the speed drop back to 60mph, and maintain.Now,once the speed has stabilized,re-check the tach.You may find the tach some 150 to 250 rpm lower than the locked rpm. This is typical.
Next still watching the tach, lay on the throttle, and simultaneously apply a bit of brakes. Still at 60mph, you should see the rpms climb some 200plus rpm,rather instantly.This is typical, of TCs under 2800 that I have seen.
What is your TC doing?

I just thought of something.
3600 rpm at 55 is about right for a tranny stuck in second gear.
55x1056x3.55x1.45/(26pi)=3660 rpm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Your thoughts?
 
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Here is the math
mph= (rpm x tireD x pi)/(1056x R1R2)
say 58mph =(3600rpmx26xpi)(1056x 1.0Top gear x R2 the diff gear.
Rearranging for R2 we get 1/R2 = (58x1056x1)/(3600x81.7) and then
1/R2=.20824 and finally; R2=4.80 rear gear
Now 4.80 is so far from 3.55 (35%),that one would have to conclude that something is outta whack. And really there is/are only three things it can be; 1) the speedO unit, or 2) the TC is slipping fiercely, or 3) some combination of the two.

As a comparison,my 4-speed car was set up with 3.55s and 26s, way back in '99. And the same formula spits out 2570@56mph, (or 2754rpm at 60mph). And my tach was reading about 2600@56 which is a 1% disagreement.
The math is good.
Since you calibrated your speedO with another car,If I had to guess,I'd guess your TC is slipping big-time

Well there is one other possibility, and that is a failed tranny. But you would have mentioned something about slipping gears.

So at this point, I would be proving that the assumed-to-be 3.55s really are 3.55s,lol.If they are,then I would be calibrating the tach. And if it is good, then I would be pulling that TC.
It may be a little early to be shopping for an O/D[/QUOTE
I think your math or memory is wrong, my trans isn't slipping nor is my converter, this is not my first hotrod, as I said my numbers may be off but not by much but who really gives a **** anyhow? As stated above the rpms are over 3k somewhere and it is very uncomfortable at cruising speed, does the stupid math about rpms vs mph make any different other than you trying to be a wise ***? This is a forum for enthusiast to share opinions and knowledge to a certain extent, this isn't lets see how smart we are how how big our dicks are.
 
Look your numbers aren't right and we're pointing that out. You should be running about 2900 rpm at 60. Either your gears aren't 3.55 or your converter has some extreme slipping.
 
Like I said, it is over 3k rpm cruising down the road at 55-60 which is not comfortable, we go from what is the best OD trans to fit in an A body to what are the precise numbers of your rpms vs mph? Like I said who really cares? Anyone who has driven one of these cars with 26" rear tires 355 gear and a 727 trans knows good and well what I am talking about. It doesn't take a smart-*** math-magician to figure it out.
 
I don't want to sound obtuse here but your converter is a 3600, when you are cruisin trying to keep the rpms down say under 2600 does your converter heat up or stall or does the "lockup" part of the converter prevent that? I'm not sure exactly how that works, I would like a 2800 stall but I don't want it slipping or causing excess heat at cruising speed. Does your lockup work on a switch or does it kick in automatically?

The lockup function essentially is a clutch that engages and takes any slip out of the converter. You cannot go full throttle with this engaged unless you have a triple disk setup. Most are single disk like mine. You can set it up to automatically engage or use a controller or use a switch to turn it on and off manually. Mine is wired so that I flip the switch and engage it only when I want it to.

And to your comment about anyone who has a 727 will know what you're talking about, most here run a 727 including me currently. I run 4.10 gears and a 5500 stall and still running less rpm on the highway than you. Shouldn't be that way. That's all I'm saying.
 
I wanted to take my car for a spin to refresh my memory on excact numbers that were in question IE rpm vs mph an so forth but the county decided to dump salt on the frosty roads this morning, lets just say driving between 55 and 65 my engine turns at an rpm which makes me very uncomfortable without getting too technical with exact numbers. I don't want to sound obtuse here but your converter is a 3600, when you are cruisin trying to keep the rpms down say under 2600 does your converter heat up or stall or does the "lockup" part of the converter prevent that? I'm not sure exactly how that works, I would like a 2800 stall but I don't want it slipping or causing excess heat at cruising speed. Does your lockup work on a switch or does it kick in automatically?


Good questions. I had always been a manual trans guy until this car. I realized that with the traffic around my house and with decades of rowing gears, I had tired of always having to push in the clutch and shift. I still have and enjoy my other hotrod with a five speed, but driving an automatic car is a pleasure too.

The torque converter I bought is a very high quality unit from Precision of New Hampton. It uses the same 3 carbon fiber clutch set-up that they put in 3/4 and 1 ton diesel trucks. It does allow the engine to spin up to 3600 rpm when I press the gas pedal more than say 1/4 of the way to the floor, but when I am cruising along below 1/4 travel, it feels like a regular stall converter with very little slippage. Another benefit to having a looser converter is that with the larger cam I am running, I can drop the car into gear and I don't really effect the idle, which I have set at 800 rpm. If I take my foot off the brake, the car will creep forward like a normal converter.

I had a buddy who bought a cheap converter and his experiences matched all the horror stories from the 80's of excessive slippage, heating up of the transmission and his car would not creep forward idling in gear. I heard all those stories before, but learned on these forums and Moparts that converter technology has come a long way. I also am glad I listened to experienced members and bought the best converter I could find. There are a lot of great coustom converter shops, but most off the shelf converters don't fall into that category.

I have to use more than 1/4 throttle to put enough power into the torque converter to "break loose" from its seemingly tight "normal" stall it exhibits in normal driving, and free spin up to the higher stall of 3600 rpm where it solidly engages the power to the driveline and puts my motor right into its power band. It's frigin' awesome! If that makes sense.

Cruising on the freeway at 70 mph and 2600 rpm it feels like any other automatic transmission. However, with the flip of a 12v toggle switch, the lock-up feature engages and it solidly connects the engine to the transmission, just like a manual trans does and drops my rpm down to 2300. It cruises at 2500 rpm at 80mph locked up.

I have mine set-up so that it will only lock up in 4th gear when I flip the toggle switch. Its a simple 12v circuit with a normally open pressure switch connected to the 4th gear apply circuit in the transmission. There are several other ways to hook it up too, but I prefer this way.

If I mash the throttle to the floor, the lock-up automatically cuts out and it down shifts like a normal trans. I cruise around town in third "D". When I get on a freeway, I pop it into 4th "OD". I leave the switch engaged at all times unless I'm racing.
 
I believe the Extreme trans offers a 3 disk setup? The switch sounds like a good option for cruisin, I have seven vehicles and two Harleys so it is sometimes hard to remember the exact characteristics of every car. Haven't driven this paticular car in a while because of our inclement weather.
 
Good questions. I had always been a manual trans guy until this car. I realized that with the traffic around my house and with decades of rowing gears, I had tired of always having to push in the clutch and shift. I still have and enjoy my other hotrod with a five speed, but driving an automatic car is a pleasure too.

The torque converter I bought is a very high quality unit from Precision of New Hampton. It uses the same 3 carbon fiber clutch set-up that they put in 3/4 and 1 ton diesel trucks. It does allow the engine to spin up to 3600 rpm when I press the gas pedal more than say 1/4 of the way to the floor, but when I am cruising along below 1/4 travel, it feels like a regular stall converter with very little slippage. Another benefit to having a looser converter is that with the larger cam I am running, I can drop the car into gear and I don't really effect the idle, which I have set at 800 rpm. If I take my foot off the brake, the car will creep forward like a normal converter.

I had a buddy who bought a cheap converter and his experiences matched all the horror stories from the 80's of excessive slippage, heating up of the transmission and his car would not creep forward idling in gear. I heard all those stories before, but learned on these forums and Moparts that converter technology has come a long way. I also am glad I listened to experienced members and bought the best converter I could find. There are a lot of great coustom converter shops, but most off the shelf converters don't fall into that category.

I have to use more than 1/4 throttle to put enough power into the torque converter to "break loose" from its seemingly tight "normal" stall it exhibits in normal driving, and free spin up to the higher stall of 3600 rpm where it solidly engages the power to the driveline and puts my motor right into its power band. It's frigin' awesome! If that makes sense.

Cruising on the freeway at 70 mph and 2600 rpm it feels like any other automatic transmission. However, with the flip of a 12v toggle switch, the lock-up feature engages and it solidly connects the engine to the transmission, just like a manual trans does and drops my rpm down to 2300. It cruises at 2500 rpm at 80mph locked up.

I have mine set-up so that it will only lock up in 4th gear when I flip the toggle switch. Its a simple 12v circuit with a normally open pressure switch connected to the 4th gear apply circuit in the transmission. There are several other ways to hook it up too, but I prefer this way.

If I mash the throttle to the floor, the lock-up automatically cuts out and it down shifts like a normal trans. I cruise around town in third "D". When I get on a freeway, I pop it into 4th "OD". I leave the switch engaged at all times unless I'm racing.
Do you have linkage that hooks to the carb linkage so the trans knows when to disengage the lockup? And when to shift etc? The Extreme website states the stage 2 trans shifts at 4500, I left an email and tried to call Lonnie but I hear he's a one man show and very busy, I would hope it wouldn't shift at 4500 under normal driving conditions ,I wasn't sure they weren't set up with a manual valve body.
 
Do you have linkage that hooks to the carb linkage so the trans knows when to disengage the lockup? And when to shift etc? The Extreme website states the stage 2 trans shifts at 4500, I left an email and tried to call Lonnie but I hear he's a one man show and very busy, I would hope it wouldn't shift at 4500 under normal driving conditions ,I wasn't sure they weren't set up with a manual valve body.

I think the OD hook-up is explained as you were writing this. My Stage 2 shifts at 6500 rpm when the throttle is wide open. No changes other than that's how it cam from Lonnie. He is a good man. This trans makes my car quicker and faster than I would have ever expected. It's the best transmission I've ever driven, except the high dollar computer controlled AMG Mercedes stuff.
 
That's a ton of info, going to have to examine that closer after work tomorrow, my next question was answered, the weight difference which is signifigant. I need at least a 2800 rpm stall, I'm running a 440 with a 727 and 355 gears, I ran a 12.40 in the quarter blowing the nitto drag radials off at the line and with some bad high rpm breakup issues, car was going through the finish line at 6700. Cruising down the road it's around 3600 at 55 mph. Very uncomfortable. I appreciate the information.

I can assure you the numbers I gave are pretty close, my rear tires are 245/45/17 which is around a 26 inch tall tire. Cruising down the road it's at 36 not 26 at 55, maybe going 60 but no faster, I have mini vans passing me for pete sake. It has been a couple months since I drove the car but I know the rpms are over 3000 at rural highway speed. If I was at 2600 rpm I would not be looking at overdrives. I would be tickled if my rpms were 2600 cruising the country. Unless I have an imposter for a rear gear, I'm almost certain it's a 355, my dart had a 440 with 410 rear with the same tires and that was like driving a tractor down the road.

I know you hate math, but;
a 12.4second car should go about 107mph.
107 with 3.55s and a 727 and 26 inch tires is; wait for it ;4910 in direct with zero slip, and it is 7120 in second, with zero slip.That's just simple math;and math don't lie. If you add say 6% for slip the rpms are 5205 and 7547. You said 6700, so that would mean that you are not in second. Ergo you must be in direct. 6700/4910=36.4561% slip
I can only conclude that: A) your TC is junk, or B) your tranny is junk,or C) Your tires are not 26,or D) your rear gears are not 3.55s. Those are the only variables in the equation .
So since it appears you are confident that the TC and tranny are OK, and that the tires are 26; that kindof leaves no option but the gears.
Sooooooooo,what might your rear gears actually be? Well,
Here's more stinking math;
6700 @107, with say 6% slip is about oh lemmee see; I get 4.56871
So of course you might need an overdrive, cuz, oh-oh here comes more stinking math;
lemmee see 65 = 3800 no slip, perhaps 4024 @5% slip.The formula is in post #61, right at the top.
This is like grade 8 math.
I drove 3.55s for about a Zillion miles.With 245/60-14s, no less. And 60mph(Canadian speed-limit) was about 2785rpm.I usually cruised at 56/2600rpm.

Overdrive options have already been discussed.
 
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