Head Gasket

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ben littleton

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I have a 65' dart 270 with an original 273, Carter BBD 2 barrel and true dual exhaust. I've had an issue with using oil, I have to add half a quart every tank or so, and I've added a little coolant once. it doesn't ever smoke that I can see, but when I start it up, the left pipe blows out a lot of moisture and soot until it gets hot, it will have a big puddle with black spots in it. the right side barely puts anything out. does this sound like a head gasket? there is no evidence of coolant in oil or oil in the coolant, and the plugs look pretty good, with slightly sooty base rings.
When i first bought the car, I replaced the intake manifold because it was weeping a little bit on the left side, i thought that may have been where i was losing oil. however, it didn't slow the loss.
the other symptoms I have are long long cranking before startup if it has sat for a few days, and a little popping on deceleration when it's hot.
I haven't had a chance to run a compression test yet.
 
Run a compression test and a leakdown test if you have the equipment. Black smoke is rich exhaust caused by a carb issue, slow to open choke or a carb bleeding over. Blue smoke is oil burning and white smoke is coolant.
 
toolmanmike said:
Run a compression test and a leakdown test if you have the equipment. Black smoke is rich exhaust caused by a carb issue, slow to open choke or a carb bleeding over. Blue smoke is oil burning and white smoke is coolant.
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yeah I don't have any visible smoke, just a lot of vapor, and only on the left side.
 
Craig Burriss said:
Sounds more like valve stem seals to me. Maybe pull a valve cover off and see if they’re still intact.
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They're still physically there, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally crusty. I'm going to replace them when I do head gaskets. I think I'll just do gaskets because I really don't think the rings are worn, if they were I would surely have smoke, I'd think.
 
ben littleton said:
They're still physically there, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally crusty. I'm going to replace them when I do head gaskets. I think I'll just do gaskets because I really don't think the rings are work, if they were I would surely have smoke, I'd think.
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Don't throw the head gaskets away if they are steel shim (originals) Some of us 273 geeks want them to measure and compare. The original type steel shim gaskets haven't been produced for years. Mr Gasket 1121G's are about the smallest bore and thinnest you can buy.
 
All internal combustion engines have water in the exhaust. It is a byproduct of combustion. He black is soot from the pipe that comes out with the water. You don’t see the water on catalytic converter equipped cars.

Do you have stock exhaust manifolds? Does the heat riser work? If so then its blocking the right side and all the cold engine exhaust comes out the left side pipe.

Why is it a head gasket is you never have to add coolant?

You will change head gaskets for nothing and it will still do the same thing.
 
413 said:
All internal combustion engines have water in the exhaust. It is a byproduct of combustion. He black is soot from the pipe that comes out with the water.
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Right, and big oval style original eq style mufflers will crank out a bunch of water and vapor while warming up.
 
413 said:
All internal combustion engines have water in the exhaust. It is a byproduct of combustion. He black is soot from the pipe that comes out with the water. You don’t see the water on catalytic converter equipped cars.

Do you have stock exhaust manifolds? Does the heat riser work? If so then its blocking the right side and all the cold engine exhaust comes out the left side pipe.

Why is it a head gasket is you never have to add coolant?

You will change head gaskets for nothing and it will still do the same thing.
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I said I have added coolant before. also all the cold exhaust can't come out the left side, the car has true duals. I cleared out the heat riser passages when I replaced the intake gasket the first time. I understand engines make water, but a big puddle under one pipe and nothing under the other is not normal, and my other 3 classic carbureted cars don't make any puddles.
 
ben littleton said:
I said I have added coolant before. also all the cold exhaust can't come out the left side, the car has true duals. I cleared out the heat riser passages when I replaced the intake gasket the first time. I understand engines make water, but a big puddle under one pipe and nothing under the other is not normal, and my other 3 classic carbureted cars don't make any puddles.
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Is the exhaust system equipped with a functioning factory heat riser valve?
 
ben littleton said:
They're still physically there, but that doesn't mean they aren't totally crusty. I'm going to replace them when I do head gaskets. I think I'll just do gaskets because I really don't think the rings are worn, if they were I would surely have smoke, I'd think.
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Not sure I fully understand your query.... Rings aren't making it pass water, for sure. You've already described a motor in need of a top end rebuild.... you'll likely see any evidence of problems when you pull the heads, if you look closely. If reusing the same heads, have your machinist take a slight cut, which will also show problems as it fixes them (if you watch the cut). Check the intake fit carefully as going back together and you are home free. If it still spits a little water after all that warming up, it is the exhaust. Unfortunately, just saying it has duals does not speak volumes..... some mufflers hold moisture more than others, but they all lose them as they warm up. HTH, Lefty71
 
How long have you owned and driven this car? Has it been a week or a few years? You say half quart oil with each fill up. But A little coolant once. How many fill ups heave you done?
Different cars have a different amount of water come out of each pipe. This is not uncommon to be a different amount left to right.
When the heat riser blocks the right side then most of the exhaust comes through the heat crossover in the intake manifold and out the left pipe. The water comes with the flow as it’s vapor and then turn to liquid in the cold pipes. You don’t see it on a warm engine it stays vapor.

here is a closed heat riser, how much flow comes out compared to open. Yes you can feel exhaust coming out but percentage wise it’s very little.

you don’t have a head gasket problem. But go ahead and change. Them and then prove it to yourself.

BB9F0C20-B113-4DDE-8E90-B6F2FD20E511.jpeg
 
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Lefty71 said:
Not sure I fully understand your query.... Rings aren't making it pass water, for sure. You've already described a motor in need of a top end rebuild.... you'll likely see any evidence of problems when you pull the heads, if you look closely. If reusing the same heads, have your machinist take a slight cut, which will also show problems as it fixes them (if you watch the cut). Check the intake fit carefully as going back together and you are home free. If it still spits a little water after all that warming up, it is the exhaust. Unfortunately, just saying it has duals does not speak volumes..... some mufflers hold moisture more than others, but they all lose them as they warm up. HTH, Lefty71
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Yeah it passes water, only on the left bank though. that's what's got me confused, if it was both tailpipes, I would not think twice about it. there is no crossover pipe, so I know it's the left bank specificially that's behaving differently than the right, which makes me think it has to be something in that head or intake, and not general ring condition. I may as well have the heads rebuilt when I pull them, shouldn't be more than a few hundy.
 
If the above mentioned valve is closed all the exhaust goes thru the left side exhaust. The passenger side goes Thru the exhaust crossover in the intake and dumps into the left side.

dual exhaust or not. Listen to what they are telling you.
 
Syleng1 said:
If the above mentioned valve is closed all the exhaust goes thru the left side exhaust. The passenger side goes Thru the exhaust crossover in the intake and dumps into the left side.

dual exhaust or not. Listen to what they are telling you.
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sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I replied before I saw the last post about the exchanger valve. I will check that next time I'm home. I've probably filled it up 3 times and added a whole quart total. as far as coolant, I filled the car up when I replaced the intake, then maybe 2 tanks later I had to add 1/4 gallon to top it off maybe. The other thing I notice is that the car has very little power until it's at full operating temp. May be because the choke isn't open yet. It may all be tuning issues I haven't got sorted out yet. thanks!
 
ben littleton said:
sorry, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I replied before I saw the last post about the exchanger valve. I will check that next time I'm home. I've probably filled it up 3 times and added a whole quart total. as far as coolant, I filled the car up when I replaced the intake, then maybe 2 tanks later I had to add 1/4 gallon to top it off maybe. The other thing I notice is that the car has very little power until it's at full operating temp. May be because the choke isn't open yet. It may all be tuning issues I haven't got sorted out yet. thanks!
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I don't want to be argumentative, either, but I read your earlier response as being you cleaned out the heat riser passages in the intake? head? both? when you took the intake manifold off. That says nothing about the functioning of the heat riser valve in the passenger side exhaust manifold. They are supposed to be hit with solvent every so often, but that generally doesn't get done and it is not uncommon for them to be frozen in position. If it is frozen closed (like the one in my 56 Plymouth was), then virtually all the right side exhaust will be forced up through the heat riser passage into the intake, down into the driver's side heat riser passage and out the driver's side exhaust. It won't just do that when cold. It will do it all the time. (Removing the heat riser valve in my 56 was worth 8 tenths in the quarter.)

You need to at least check the heat riser. Easy to do, just unbolt the right side pipe from the manifold and take a look see.
 
right, I cleaned the crossover passage
65 Cuda 340 said:
I don't want to be argumentative, either, but I read your earlier response as being you cleaned out the heat riser passages in the intake? head? both? when you took the intake manifold off. That says nothing about the functioning of the heat riser valve in the passenger side exhaust manifold. They are supposed to be hit with solvent every so often, but that generally doesn't get done and it is not uncommon for them to be frozen in position. If it is frozen closed (like the one in my 56 Plymouth was), then virtually all the right side exhaust will be forced up through the heat riser passage into the intake, down into the driver's side heat riser passage and out the driver's side exhaust. It won't just do that when cold. It will do it all the time. (Removing the heat riser valve in my 56 was worth 8 tenths in the quarter.)

You need to at least check the heat riser. Easy to do, just unbolt the right side pipe from the manifold and take a look see.
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in the intake. I will check the valve next, I did not clean it on this car. Thanks for the reply!
 
For every gallon of gas that you burn you create a gallon of water. This is normal. Sources of oil loss= oil leaks, bad valve seals, worn valve guides, worn piston rings and bores, bad PVC valve.
 
Many mufflers have a little drain hole on the end to help get rid of the moisture. I have drilled those holes myself and it seems to help make the mufflers last longer before they rust out.
 
ben littleton said:
I have a 65' dart 270 with an original 273, Carter BBD 2 barrel and true dual exhaust. I've had an issue with using oil, I have to add half a quart every tank or so, and I've added a little coolant once. it doesn't ever smoke that I can see, but when I start it up, the left pipe blows out a lot of moisture and soot until it gets hot, it will have a big puddle with black spots in it. the right side barely puts anything out. does this sound like a head gasket? there is no evidence of coolant in oil or oil in the coolant, and the plugs look pretty good, with slightly sooty base rings.
When i first bought the car, I replaced the intake manifold because it was weeping a little bit on the left side, i thought that may have been where i was losing oil. however, it didn't slow the loss.
the other symptoms I have are long long cranking before startup if it has sat for a few days, and a little popping on deceleration when it's hot.
I haven't had a chance to run a compression test yet.
Click to expand...

1. Head gaskets are last, since that is probably not one of your problems.
2. I also bet your heat riser is stuck shut. I also cut them out and seal the pivot holes by tapping and plugging with stainless bolts.
3. Try an oil change of 20-50 VR1 Valvoline racing oil with a good oil filter. Change both every 3,000 miles.
4. Did you use good intake gaskets or did you use those worthless stamped steel ones?
5. Your choke has to be shut when cold, open slightly as soon as it starts, and be full open by normal operating temperature.
6. Do you have a points ignition and where is your timing set?
 
If you find the heat riser is working properly, or, it's stuck open, you also have the possibility that the carb is out of adjustment or needs rebuilding. If you have the original intake, I believe it's a single plane type and therefor the air/fuel doesn't mix both right and left banks as much as a dual plane intake. You may have a mixture difference between one side of the carb and the other. A vacuum leak could cause this too and maybe explain your poor performance when cold. This could be the reason you see the left tailpipe with more moisture than the right. Running rich could also be why you see the black water leaking out. I wouldn't pull the heads unless you're sure there is a gasket or crack problem. On the stock '65 273 315 casting heads, they were more likely to crack on the outside than the inside from my experience.
 
66fs said:
1. Head gaskets are last, since that is probably not one of your problems.
2. I also bet your heat riser is stuck shut. I also cut them out and seal the pivot holes by tapping and plugging with stainless bolts.
3. Try an oil change of 20-50 VR1 Valvoline racing oil with a good oil filter. Change both every 3,000 miles.
4. Did you use good intake gaskets or did you use those worthless stamped steel ones?
5. Your choke has to be shut when cold, open slightly as soon as it starts, and be full open by normal operating temperature.
6. Do you have a points ignition and where is your timing set?
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It has been converted to solid state, I can't remember whether I have it set at 5 or 10 degrees with the vac plugged. I have 4 cars so all the numbers are running together in my head.

The intake gaskets I used were paper Fel Pro.

I will check on the timing and heat risers this week, thanks!
 
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