833 Assembly Woes...

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eekvonzipper

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Can I slide My 4-Speed together with the Cluster Gear already in place?
Or does Passon's Method just Suck?
I'm seriously considering dropping the Cluster to the bottom of the Case and starting over.
Spent hours trying to do it the Jamie Passon way... Screw That Guy! :icon_fU:

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I install everything in the case with the input shaft on the front of the main shaft. Then install the heated front bearing with no rings at all using a pipe and plate by tapping on the inner and outer race together. Seat it on the input shaft then install the small snap ring. Pull front on the input and install the outer ring . Your done. You don't need much heat we put the bearing in the oven so the heat is uniform.

The bearing must be heated so it slides on the input with little force holding front on the input or you could damage the synchronizers.

It is also easier assembling the trans with the tailshaft housing mounted to a engine stand using the trans mount holes and face the input up. Put the case down onto the assembly its lighter then putting the assembly into the case.

I have done them both ways over the years. One thing about having the input already in the case with the roller bearings installed is you never know if the rollers stayed in place .

This is the way we do it now. I am sure there are many ways that work. The 18 splines are to heavy for me to throw around at my age. I did snake them together the hard way in the past. Not anymore. As far as dropping the cluster and trying to hold the front and rear thrust washers in place to push the shaft in. I don't do that
 
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Can I slide My 4-Speed together with the Cluster Gear already in place?
yes it is possible; but as you found out, very tricky. see note-3
After my first one; I ever afterwords just leave the cluster in the bottom.
But that requires a new trick; namely to get the pin in from the back.
To do this, I first install the empty tail onto the empty mainbox which I set face down on the bench. Then the tail has to be oriented upside down with the cluster-pin hole showing. Rotate it so that you can put one bolt in any hole and still see the pin-hole. Snug it in. Then attempt to insert the pin. Most factory cases I have worked, the pin goes in, but in some cases you might have to clearance the tail to allow the pin to slide on by. My Passon case needed a touch of clearancing.
My bench has a large hole in that accepts the front bearing, without letting it (the input gear) drop out.
So in goes the cluster with the thrust washers, then the input. Then the rear gasket and upside-down tail, then the pin. After the pin is in, I just rotate the tail and install the rear bolts, and finally, install the FACTORY snapring onto the front bearing followed by the retainer.
This method is easy-peasy, requires no heat, and is as good as foolproof. I've done hundreds of 'em.
NOTE-1
the front snapring, that is supplied on a New bearing, as installed on the bearing, will NOT fit into the retainer and if you try it, you will break the retainer. The Factory ring is significantly more narrow and; is a special item to this trans, as is the rear bearing, if a 308.
Note 2
Just make sure you align the thrust washers after you slide the cluster over, lol.
Note-3
The Passon way? Vaseline will not work at room temperature. You need a grease that is less temperature sensitive. And I put the brass ring on the input gear and leave the retainer off so I can push the input gear as far out of the box as it goes. I stand the case on it's face with the input gear hanging thru a hole in my bench. I do not shift the front slider forward yet. I mark the slider with a paint-marker as to where the struts are . Then I stand the back end up vertical, then hoist it up and in. I used to do that with one hand and steer the slider into place with the other. But, I'm 69 now, so probably couldn't do it even with an Aluminum tail, lol. If you can't do it, I suggest putting a couple of blocks on the rear face prior to dropping it in, then steering the struts into alignment, before dropping the slider around third gear.
The other option is to do this with everything lying down, which works too, until you snag a roller going into the input gear, lol. Then you get to start over, except sometimes you can't feel a roller flip out and it gets shoved into the cavity at the front. I like to know where those stinking rollers are at all times.
 
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One red-neck note---Guy recently paid me to put together a "rare" one. This was a factory A833 married to a transfer in a CHEVY 4x4. Did not knew they did that. Anyway I needed a "quick and dirty" (well clean) arbor to get the needles for the cluster under control. Ended up a smooth piece of 5/8 heater hose worked well!!!!
 
NOTE-1
the front snapring, that is supplied on a New bearing will NOT fit...
Note 2
Just make sure you align the thrust washers after you slide the cluster over, lol.
I don't think I kept the Front SnapRing... Do You Have One?
Realigning the Thrust Washers is My only fear, doing it this way. My Left hand doesn't work so well after a Tendon Transfer Surgery...
Is there enough room to work in there after the Gearset is in, to move the Cluster around?
I'm Using a Rebuild Kit from Brewers with the Assembly Grease and the Tube for the Needle Bearings
and I have a Passon's Book if anyone wants it. Otherwise I'll watch it burn.

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Realigning the Thrust Washers is My only fear, doing it this way.
I grease the T-washers to the case, and because I assemble it with the face of the box down, they stay in place.
My Left hand doesn't work so well after a Tendon Transfer Surgery...
Oh boy, that'd tough,
Is there enough room to work in there after the Gearset is in, to move the Cluster around?
Yes and no. Yur gonna have to stand her on her nose so you slide the cluster into position and have her stay there. But to do that, from being slid together horizontally, the tail will have to be bolted on upside down with the cluster pin-hole exposed.

The front retainer will have to be removed in most cases, so that the input gear can move ahead tight to the case.
@Oldmanmopar in Post #2, has a pretty good idea, one which I've never tried because I have always been strong enough to drop the back-end in. It might be a good way for you to go. specially since he says;
You don't need much heat we put the bearing in the oven so the heat is uniform.
 
I'm gonna take the Front Retainer off the Old 3-Speed I pulled out and Hopefully find the Front SnapRing that I need...
I've already pressed the Front Bearing onto the Input Shaft, So not likely that I'll be pulling it back off.
I'm hopeful that the Cluster will cooperate if I lower it down and out of the way...
I need my Input Shaft to get the Clutch Aligned anyway, and it wont come back out with the Cluster in place. So...
How Close does the Bell have to be aligned? @AJ/FormS
I'm Zeroed side-to-side but can only get within .008 top to bottom.
Seems it needs to go up .004 thousanths but it won't. I had my lady out there with a hammer trying to get it to move up!
Is .004 out of round acceptable?

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So you are going to use the actual Mopar trans input shaft as a Clutch alignment tool? Man, the Local Clutch guys who did my 11" scalloped big block Clutch gave me an alignment tool, sorry I'm not of more help.
 
If it makes you feel any better, I'd burn Passon's book, too.
 
I have a Plastic Alignment tool... but :mad::mob::poke::realcrazy::BangHead:
I know, you can kinda move em around a Lil, I try and "gently push" and visually observe what's going on, while turning the assembly when using plastic junk to align a 6500 rpm mass. Just don't shove it in the hole, leave all the weight on it, and start cranking it down! Lol! Steel is Real! I've never had the pleasure of doing it that way
 
How Close does the Bell have to be aligned? @AJ/FormS
I'm Zeroed side-to-side but can only get within .008 top to bottom.
Seems it needs to go up .004 thousanths but it won't.
.008 will be fine. I have pulled apart worse which were working just fine.
Pull the input up and then let it drop; watch the crank pilot. it will move way more than that so the bearing doesn't care. The only part that cares is the hub on the disc and it is carried by the marcel spring, so .008 is nothing to it. That just leaves the input drive teeth to the cluster driven teeth alignment. I suppose if you wanted to drive 800hp into that interface, you might want to fine-tune it a lil closer..... but my trans has never complained about it at ~400hp. Since over 95% of your street driving will probably be at low power levels, IMO, .008 is a non-issue.

As for aligning the disc; yeah I haven't had any luck with the plastic POS tools.
Whatever you do, DO NOT let the trans hang on the input gear. Make some short alignment bolts and screw them into the BH at the bottom corners and make sure that they are short enough to take out later; one can be longer as first-starter. Let these studs take the weight if you run into difficulty. Make sure the Trans is in FOURTH gear BEFORE you lift it up, lol. And install a spare yoke on the output shaft so you can start the input splines into the disc. Once in, drive it home and put the top bolts in to hold it there.
Get a man helper to substitute for your bum wrist. IIRC that box is 135 pounds before oil goes in. If it decides to tumble off the jack, your lady will be no match for it. Do not let her get under the car!
unless maybe
she is an Amazon,lol.
 
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I've got my tranny all rebuilt not installed yet, but after reading lots of these threads you guys have me worried I may have a dislodged a front roller bearing from doing the passon drop down method. Is there any way to know if a roller dropped down the input shaft? Everything spins freely, no noise. I've got about an 1/8th inch movement up/down left/right on the input shaft but read on the forums here that can be normal.
 
The cavity will easily accommodate one roller, maybe even two.
Do you remember installing those rollers?
Do you remember installing the last one?
Using new rollers, the last one has to go in clocked to the gap in the retaining ring, and slid all the way in. It is highly unlikely that it or any of them will be dislodged, especially greased up with a medium-viscosity grease/NOT Vaseline.
I know of no reliable test for an out-of-place roller.
Yes the 1/8th movement at the tip of the input is pretty normal, and if anything is conservative.

After the fact, running a trans with one roller out of place may never be an issue for a streeter. If the trans, under load, is as quiet in all gears as it is in Direct, chances are that everything is copacetic.
 
Thanks AJ for the reply.

Yes, I do remember installing all the rollers bearings plus the last clocked one. I also used Trans-gel from Brewers to keep it all lined up. I just hate how you can't see anything once the cluster is dropped into the front input shaft. I'll give it a shot.

Appreciate it.
 
Thanks AJ for the reply.

Yes, I do remember installing all the rollers bearings plus the last clocked one. I also used Trans-gel from Brewers to keep it all lined up. I just hate how you can't see anything once the cluster is dropped into the front input shaft. I'll give it a shot.

Appreciate it.

Fwiw, my 833 rebuild kit also included 2 extra rollers.
I found them after I had finished assembling. Then took it all back apart just to find no issue...
I took pictures of the rollers for myself on the second assembly.
 
My Brewers Rebuild Kit came with Rollers that
Were All .001 too big! Couldn't get the last one in...
Had to re-use my old rollers to load the Input shaft
All the Needle Bearings for the Cluster fit fine.
But the New Ones for the Input?
I have two sets now, no go.
 
the #2 post is way i fix trans except, i put input shaft in lathe and sand bearing surface with 220 grit paper, i don't have to heat bearing then, by assembling whole trans with input assembled to main shaft can slide it through case easily, 3,4 slider has to be in 4th gear for it to clear 3rd gear as you slide unit in case I've ran mopar trans for lots of years, used this method always, just food for thought.
 
the #2 post is way i fix trans except, i put input shaft in lathe and sand bearing surface with 220 grit paper, i don't have to heat bearing then, by assembling whole trans with input assembled to main shaft can slide it through case easily, 3,4 slider has to be in 4th gear for it to clear 3rd gear as you slide unit in case I've ran mopar trans for lots of years, used this method always, just food for thought.
Can You do the same with the Front Brearing already on the Input Shaft?
 
Is this an OD Trans? From my understanding, that s the only time you need to drop the cluster for the input to clear.

I had to drop the cluster on mine ( Passon Hemi OD gearset) and it was a mother to get the thrust washers back aligned.
 
I was going to ask the same question, the OD boxes I have built have to have the cluster out.
 
Can You do the same with the Front Bearing already on the Input Shaft?
Only if the cluster drive drops below the bearing hole. This only happens when the small 307 bearing is installed.
I was going to ask the same question, the OD boxes I have built have to have the cluster out.
When you say out, I think you probably mean; dropped into the bottom of the case.
Mines the 3.09 gearset for the early barracuda
Which IIRC uses the 308 front bearing, so .....
Is this an OD Trans? From my understanding, that s the only time you need to drop the cluster for the input to clear.
I had to drop the cluster on mine ( Passon Hemi OD gearset) and it was a mother to get the thrust washers back aligned.
Which is why I grease the washes to the case, stand the case on it's face and drop the loaded M/shaft down into it. The washers usually stay right where I put them. And bonus, so does the cluster, when I slide it home.
Mines the 3.09 gearset for the early barracuda
Yur gonna really like those gears.
 
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