Do I wait for the 5 speed?

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fueliedart

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I am to the point where I am going to put my 71 Dart together. I really want the Passon 5 speed but they seem as though they aren't going to be available for quite some time. I was thinking about putting an aluminum 4 speed together with the Passon 18 spline OD kit but would prefer the 5 speed. The OD kit is also not inexpensive so even though the 5 speed is quite a bit more I would rather bite the bullet and spend the money on the 5 speed put it in and be done with it. What I would like to know is has anyone run both the Passon OD unit and the 5 speed to let me know if the tradeoff is worth or not worth the difference. I do plan on driving the car alot and only want to do this once.
 
Probably not what you want to hear but I think I’d go with a TKX kit over the Passon 5spd. Too many horror stories about delivery and popping out of gear for something that costs that much, in my opinion. The 833 od kit doesnt trip my trigger much either. I’d do a standard four speed with a Gear Vendor OD before that.
 
Yeah I've heard those stories but I don't want to put one of the "other" 5 speeds in and that is why I want to hear from people that have actually used the Passon products. I want to put it together and drive it, not do a bunch of modifying.
 
Depending on your torque output, and specific build;
the A/F body A833od unit, a 3+1, is a great option.
What I mean is this;
the ratios spreads are a little wide, and better suited to engines with a broad flat torque curve. Like low-compression factory engines.
As you put more and more cam into your smaller displacement engines, generally, they trade away low-rpm torque to get the high-rpm power. and soon the holes in the gear-splits become evident.

This is the same for the Passon 3+1;
the difference is that the Passon will embrace more torque.
In a small-tire street car like a Dart or Scamp, etc, this is sorta moot.
As for a big-tub car like a Duster/Demon/Barracuda, I drove those boxes for more than 5 years, and the only thing my hi-torque 367 ever broke was that puny overdrive gear, and that was my mistake, every time.

But if you have a hi-compression BB STREETER, I fail to see an advantage of having anything more than an overdrive 3+1, anyway.
If your looking for fuel economy with a cammed up BB, the slower you run them the less fuel economy they are likely to return. This is because as the rpm goes down, it becomes increasingly difficult to give them the timing they want, with the factory-style ignition system.
So then, in my struggles with my 367, I found the magic window at around 2200 rpm. Well, that requires a final-drive ratio of ~2.76s. That's a tuff number for a 367, to be sure, but with a 3.09 Commando low gear, that becomes the same starter gear as 3.23s with the standard 2.66 box, or 3.55s with the 2.47 box. So, it's just doable.
With a BB then, I imagine, the combination of 2.76s and a 2.66 box, would easily be doable, on the street. BTW Street is all I know.

Now with BB torque on tap, the 3+1 , for a final drive of 2.76, we can use 3.73s, and the starter gear becomes 11.52, which is sorta ridiculously low for a BB, but Second gear is where the action is anyway. So then with 3.73s in the back, Second Roadgear becomes 6.23, a pretty good number for a BB. (my 3.67 likes 6.20 to 6.80)

Lemme stack some numbers for you.
First lets look at the relationship of rear gear to cruise rpm with 27" tires.

2.76 = 2234rpm times .73od = 2.01/1630rpm
2.94 = 2380rpm times .73od = 2.15/1737
3.23 = 2614rpm times .73od = 2.36/1908
3.55 = 2873rpm times .73od = 2.59/2097
3.73 = 3019rpm times .73od = 2.72/2204
Next the transmissions in question;
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od splits; .54-.60-.73
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00 splits of .62-.73-.71
2.66-1.92-1.40-1.00 splits of .72-.73-.71
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00 splits of .72-.76-.75
Pick a cruise rpm, which will pick the gear for you. Multiply that gear by the transmission ratios, to get the Roadgrears

Ok here are some examples
Here is the Mopar 3+1 with 3.73s the roadgears are;
11.52- 6.20-3.73-2.72 and 65= 2200 with 27" tires. Note the 6.20 Second gear, which, as mentioned, is a pretty good Second gear. This will get you 65mph at about 5000 rpm. To get to that number with a regular 4-speed requires a rear gear of 3.23s and the Roadgears become;
8.59-6.20-4.52-3.23 and 65= ~2600 IMO, a stout BB could easily pull a lil less Second Gear, and lets put a Commando 4-speed in front of it, and so the Roadgears are;
9.08-5.64-4.12-2.94 and 65= ~2400 MY Opinion is that this would be pretty sweet with a stout BB.

But if fuel economy is not your concern, then put me on ignore, lol
 
Not specifically what you asked, but I was in the same scenario as you.

I decided on a fully aluminum Passon case 18 spline 4 speed, street slick shift kit, and a Gear Vendors OD. My parts have just arrived, I am about to start the assembly process.

I didnt like the ratio split on the Passion Hemi OD, and I was nervous of the A855 if anything ever went wrong.

I could have put on a new style OD transmission but I don't want to cut my 340 Swinger car.
 
We built this car back in 2007. Did a Hot Rod Power Tour. 451 B engine and a Passion 4 speed over drive.3.73 rear.
Car put down 20 MPG during and was fun to drive.
This is what we noticed.Anywhere we drove if you romped on it you would redline first to second, second to third and ran out of road I.E. already over the 100 mph mark,or a curve ahead,or traffic etc.
Now I had a Tremec 5 speed in a B body and it was ok but after using the Passion 4 speed OD I/we really prefer the Passion box. Not that there is anything wrong with a 5 or 6 speed if that is what you want. But do you really need those extra gears ?
P.S. We also did a Tremec 5 in a Duster using 3.55 rear and the car would lug (Because of the cam) at speeds below 65.
Just my thought on this subject. Price is much better too.

100_1169.JPG
 
AJ/FormS said:
Depending on your torque output, and specific build;
the A/F body A833od unit, a 3+1, is a great option.
What I mean is this;
the ratios spreads are a little wide, and better suited to engines with a broad flat torque curve. Like low-compression factory engines.
As you put more and more cam into your smaller displacement engines, generally, they trade away low-rpm torque to get the high-rpm power. and soon the holes in the gear-splits become evident.

This is the same for the Passon 3+1;
the difference is that the Passon will embrace more torque.
In a small-tire street car like a Dart or Scamp, etc, this is sorta moot.
As for a big-tub car like a Duster/Demon/Barracuda, I drove those boxes for more than 5 years, and the only thing my hi-torque 367 ever broke was that puny overdrive gear, and that was my mistake, every time.

But if you have a hi-compression BB STREETER, I fail to see an advantage of having anything more than an overdrive 3+1, anyway.
If your looking for fuel economy with a cammed up BB, the slower you run them the less fuel economy they are likely to return. This is because as the rpm goes down, it becomes increasingly difficult to give them the timing they want, with the factory-style ignition system.
So then, in my struggles with my 367, I found the magic window at around 2200 rpm. Well, that requires a final-drive ratio of ~2.76s. That's a tuff number for a 367, to be sure, but with a 3.09 Commando low gear, that becomes the same starter gear as 3.23s with the standard 2.66 box, or 3.55s with the 2.47 box. So, it's just doable.
With a BB then, I imagine, the combination of 2.76s and a 2.66 box, would easily be doable, on the street. BTW Street is all I know.

Now with BB torque on tap, the 3+1 , for a final drive of 2.76, we can use 3.73s, and the starter gear becomes 11.52, which is sorta ridiculously low for a BB, but Second gear is where the action is anyway. So then with 3.73s in the back, Second Roadgear becomes 6.23, a pretty good number for a BB. (my 3.67 likes 6.20 to 6.80)

Lemme stack some numbers for you.
First lets look at the relationship of rear gear to cruise rpm with 27" tires.

2.76 = 2234rpm times .73od = 2.01/1630rpm
2.94 = 2380rpm times .73od = 2.15/1737
3.23 = 2614rpm times .73od = 2.36/1908
3.55 = 2873rpm times .73od = 2.59/2097
3.73 = 3019rpm times .73od = 2.72/2204
Next the transmissions in question;
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od splits; .54-.60-.73
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00 splits of .62-.73-.71
2.66-1.92-1.40-1.00 splits of .72-.73-.71
2.47-1.77-1.34-1.00 splits of .72-.76-.75
Pick a cruise rpm, which will pick the gear for you. Multiply that gear by the transmission ratios, to get the Roadgrears

Ok here are some examples
Here is the Mopar 3+1 with 3.73s the roadgears are;
11.52- 6.20-3.73-2.72 and 65= 2200 with 27" tires. Note the 6.20 Second gear, which, as mentioned, is a pretty good Second gear. This will get you 65mph at about 5000 rpm. To get to that number with a regular 4-speed requires a rear gear of 3.23s and the Roadgears become;
8.59-6.20-4.52-3.23 and 65= ~2600 IMO, a stout BB could easily pull a lil less Second Gear, and lets put a Commando 4-speed in front of it, and so the Roadgears are;
9.08-5.64-4.12-2.94 and 65= ~2400 MY Opinion is that this would be pretty sweet with a stout BB.

But if fuel economy is not your concern, then put me on ignore, lol
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5.9 Magnum with factory fuel injection, slightly built Edelbrock heads MP can and probably 3.55 gears not sure about tire size yet. I have a non OD and an OD trans in my garage I want either the 5 speed or the Passon OD gear set. So back to my original inquiry, which one from someone who has actually used either both or one or the other.
 
fueliedart said:
Why. Did you have problems with yours?
Click to expand...

have you read all the horror stories with them? poor product and even worse customer service. thats a ton of coin for a questionable product.

had a buddy with the passon 4 speed od (not the 855) and loved it.
 
Darter6 said:
We built this car back in 2007. Did a Hot Rod Power Tour. 451 B engine and a Passion 4 speed over drive.3.73 rear.
Car put down 20 MPG during and was fun to drive.
This is what we noticed.Anywhere we drove if you romped on it you would redline first to second, second to third and ran out of road I.E. already over the 100 mph mark,or a curve ahead,or traffic etc.
Now I had a Tremec 5 speed in a B body and it was ok but after using the Passion 4 speed OD I/we really prefer the Passion box. Not that there is anything wrong with a 5 or 6 speed if that is what you want. But do you really need those extra gears ?
P.S. We also did a Tremec 5 in a Duster using 3.55 rear and the car would lug (Because of the cam) at speeds below 65.
Just my thought on this subject. Price is much better too.

View attachment 1716239753
Click to expand...
OK , that is more in line with what I’m trying to find out. Thanks for answering. I still would like to get other thoughts and am kinda leaning towards the 18 spline Passon OD kit.
 
abodyjoe said:
have you read all the horror stories with them? poor product and even worse customer service. thats a ton of coin for a questionable product.

had a buddy with the passon 4 speed od (not the 855) and loved it.
Click to expand...
Thanks I have heard the stories and that is why I wanted some info beforehand so I can make a good decision.
 
fueliedart said:
Thanks I have heard the stories and that is why I wanted some info beforehand so I can make a good decision.
Click to expand...

I’ve only seen a couple of the horror stories but it’s a pretty simple gear box. Why it couldn’t be easily repaired is beyond my ability to grasp.

It’s basically an 833 with internal shift rails. How hard can it be to make one work??

OD boxes suck to drive on the street. You essentially have a 3 speed where 4th is direct and 3rd is overdriven.

I won’t do an OD for a street car I have to drive.
 
I've got the GFI 5SR (Passon 5spd) transmission in my 64 Barracuda. The biggest problem is the lo-oong wait. It is a noisy transmission that sounds like an old Muncie rock crusher in the first three gears, (quiet in 4th and fifth though). I had to modify my tunnel a bit to get a right angle speedometer gear adapter on it so the speedometer wouldn't bounce because of the tight early A-body tunnel. Aside from those minor issues I love it. I got mine from John Huff.
Contact
John Huff
(307) 262-0125
He seems to be the guy that still cares about whether that 5SR transmission continues to be produced and has current information.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’ve only seen a couple of the horror stories but it’s a pretty simple gear box. Why it couldn’t be easily repaired is beyond my ability to grasp.

It’s basically an 833 with internal shift rails. How hard can it be to make one work??

OD boxes suck to drive on the street. You essentially have a 3 speed where 4th is direct and 3rd is overdriven.

I won’t do an OD for a street car I have to drive.
Click to expand...
That’s great, but how does that answer my question?
 
Speaking about many gears;
Earlier
I ran the A833od with a GearVender behind it and splitting gears, making 7 progressive gears. For a while, I ran it with 4.88s, which, in double over, ran like 2.70s .. But I soon settled on 4.30s, for 65= 1930 rpm.
In the end the 13.28 parade gear was too deep, splitting gears was not as much fun as I'd hoped for, the natural gear splits were just too far apart, and after switching to 3.55s, Seven gears was just too much.
I switched to the Commando gears, and kept the GVod. I very highly recommend the gearsplits I now have, so if you go for a 5-speed, this is what I would look for:

3.09-1.92-1.40-1.00-.78od splits are
.62-.73-.71-.78 But I shift into od after third and into 4th last, making the splits
.62-.73-.78-.71. so these are the splits I would recommend. I wouldn't pay as much attention to the ratios, as I would to the splits.
IMO, 5 gears is more than enough.
 
grimreaper said:
I've got the GFI 5SR (Passon 5spd) transmission in my 64 Barracuda. The biggest problem is the lo-oong wait. It is a noisy transmission that sounds like an old Muncie rock crusher in the first three gears, (quiet in 4th and fifth though). I had to modify my tunnel a bit to get a right angle speedometer gear adapter on it so the speedometer wouldn't bounce because of the tight early A-body tunnel. Aside from those minor issues I love it. I got mine from John Huff.
Contact
John Huff
(307) 262-0125
He seems to be the guy that still cares about whether that 5SR transmission continues to be produced and has current information.
Click to expand...
 
Now that’s what I’m talking about. A straight forward answer. How many miles you have the trans?
 
I don’t know if he has run an A833OD, but I know @JBrian runs an A855. Maybe he would have some input, hopefully he sees this.
 
I've read about some of the horror stories but my experience with the passon 5 spd is I love it. No issues with it jumping out of gear. Initially what I did experience was a clunking when shifting from 2nd to 3rd. Clunk would disappear after a 15 to 20 minutes of operation. This seemed to occur in cooler weather. After talking to Jammie and trying to figure out what was occurring, this included removing Trans and taking back for inspection. Nothing apparently seemed to be wrong. Same result, clunky at times when cold. Shortly after this they came up with a different type of gear oil and it cured the issue. Can't recall the brand or type at the moment but I have it documented. As for the price, yes it's expensive but so is everything else today and tomorrow. Was a bit of a pain in the beginning but I'm happy and glad I went with the 5spd. Running 3:55 rear gears and cruises effortlessly at 75 mph and up. I drive the duster 7 hrs to Carlisle and other long distance cruises. Hopefully if you purchase one you will have positive experience also. Good luck with your decision.
 
fueliedart said:
OK , that is more in line with what I’m trying to find out. Thanks for answering. I still would like to get other thoughts and am kinda leaning towards the 18 spline Passon OD kit.
Click to expand...

Don't do the Passing OD 18 spline kit. I did it and the OD ratio is only .80, it isn't significant enough in my opinion. Plus I couldn't downshift into 2nd consistently, so I tried to talk to Passon about it and I didn't get anywhere. I talked to Dan at Brewers and he said he knew those gears were an issue, he could fix it, but at that point I was done. I ended up selling the car, spent ten years getting it exactly the way I thought l wanted it, but it wasn't what I thought and the OD kit was a major part of that. Just too much time and money spent to do it over. Just fell out of love.

If I could do it again, I'd keep the 23 spine 4 speed with a 3.23 gear and just cruise.
 
I drive an A833OD so I don’t have an real input for you other than a thought.

A 5 or 6 speed does more than just allow a deeper rear gear. It can also makes the splits better, just like AJ is saying. Simple math.

plumkrazee70 said:
Don't do the Passing OD 18 spline kit. I did it and the OD ratio is only .80, it isn't significant enough in my opinion. Plus I couldn't downshift into 2nd consistently, so I tried to talk to Passon about it and I didn't get anywhere. I talked to Dan at Brewers and he said he knew those gears were an issue, he could fix it, but at that point I was done. I ended up selling the car, spent ten years getting it exactly the way I thought l wanted it, but it wasn't what I thought and the OD kit was a major part of that. Just too much time and money spent to do it over. Just fell out of love.

If I could do it again, I'd keep the 23 spine 4 speed with a 3.23 gear and just cruise.
Click to expand...

I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I am pretty sure a 3.09 Commando box has the same splits as the Passon box. Just run a rear gear that matches the Passon box in OD and should feel about the same.

Personally, the trans might be the single largest change you can make to add usability and a modern feel. Around town fun and highway cruise rpm, best of both worlds if you do it right.
 
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