1966 Barracuda 273 Died!!! HELP

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bkbond12

Old ones need lovin too..
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So this morning, I had a jackaninny lock up their brakes in front of me while I was driving the Barracuda. I ended up standing on the brakes, and avoiding an accident and everything seemed fine. Well, about a mile down the road the car died/stalled. Fortunately, I was able to drop it in neutral and coast into a nice parking lot.

The car smelled flooded, and I confirmed it was getting gas. I then checked spark at the wires, coil and points. While checking the points, I found that the distributor wasn't turning while rolling the engine over.

So basically, is there a weak component or common failure in the dizzy setup that would cause this? I'm attaching a photo of the parts manual from the 66' catalogue (page 349/1753). Please let me know what could be wrong. Thanks.
 

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I cant imagine how a sudden stop would fault the ignition. If the engine spins too easy, like a super strong battery, you might have lost the top end drive ( timming chain and sprokets ).
 
RedFish said:
I cant imagine how a sudden stop would fault the ignition. If the engine spins too easy, like a super strong battery, you might have lost the top end drive ( timming chain and sprokets ).
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The engine spins at a regular speed...no whirling or fast spinning. The distributor rotor is not spinning with the cap off. I can't turn it by hand either. I believe that A) the gear broke, stripped or came off or B) the oil pump failed and is preventing it from turning. I'm going to pull the distributor out and check and if it's fine, I'm going to try turning the oil pump with a long handled screwdriver to see if it's "seized". Otherwise, I don't know enough about engines to accurately diagnose the problem.
 
I cant see where a sudden stop would cause what you are having but it could be a timing chain from what we have been told so far. Update us as you know more.
 
The cam shaft turns the oil pump and distributor. The connection shaft has spiral gear teeth. One direction of rotation would need to turn the cam too. The oposite direction of rotation would cause that drive shaft to climb upward and disengage the teeth.
Hope that makes sense
 
I just noticed in your sig that this is a manual trans car too. That leads me a little more toward the timing chain.
 
chryslerfat said:
I cant see where a sudden stop would cause what you are having but it could be a timing chain from what we have been told so far. Update us as you know more.
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I'm not convinced it was the sudden stop, it could be merely coincidental, but it was running good before (tired with a little smoke, but good).

RedFish said:
The cam shaft turns the oil pump and distributor. The connection shaft has spiral gear teeth. One direction of rotation would need to turn the cam too. The oposite direction of rotation would cause that drive shaft to climb upward and disengage the teeth.
Hope that makes sense
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The cam shaft turns the oil pump, or the cam shaft turns the distributor which turns the oil pump? Do you think the gear jumped up, off, or bound on the cam gear? Basically, the engine turns over like normal, just the distributor is not spinning when I crank it over.

I won't have time today, but this weekend I plan on pulling the distributor and checking the gear and the oil pump (see if it spins) and if that's all fine, I'll pull the timing cover and check the chain, or could I just pull a valve cover and see if the valves are opening/closing to determine if the cam is functioning?

I appreciate the input gentlemen. Thanks.
 
If pulling dizzy doesnt find the problem, pop a valve cover and try turning engine over. If valves arent moving, then its your timing chain. Good luck
 
You could disconnect the fuel line easiest. If the cam ecentric isn't turning the pump doesn't pump.
 
RedFish said:
You could disconnect the fuel line easiest. If the cam ecentric isn't turning the pump doesn't pump.
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I'm getting fuel to the carb, just no spark anywhere because the rotor isn't turning. I'm really thinking the pin that holds the gear in the distributor shaft sheered off and has bound the distributor up. I'll know more when I pull it and will let you guys know. The motor really needed a freshening anyways, but was gonna put it off till winter. My uncle said he has a "wide block 318" I could have and my other uncle has a 66'white valiant with an early 70'sgen 340/727 and 8 3/4 I can have for $2000. I was thinking about picking that up and swapping tue entire drivetrain, but just haven't decided if I want to do that tothe original drive train.
 
In SBMs, the gear isn't held on the dizzy driveshaft...the gear is part of the oil pump driveshaft and the dizzy just has a slotted drive...
 

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I'm not really familiar with the old Polysphere engines, but I do know they are definitely wider, and I don't believe they were ever intended to go into A bodies. You might play hell actually getting it in there. Otherwise, the 340/727/8 3/4 would work pretty good I imagine.
 
The cam shaft turns the oil pump, or the cam shaft turns the distributor which turns the oil pump?
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The cam turns the oil pump driveshaft, the slotted drive for the dizzy sits in the top of that driveshaft.

You sure the dizzy doesn't spin when you turn the engine over? If it was running fine after your close call then just suddenly died...that's kinda odd. I could see if the shaft sheared, but usually if that happens, the shaft will freewheel when you spin the rotor. Can you even get the few degrees of rotation from the timing plate, or is that locked up too?
 
txstang84 said:
In SBMs, the gear isn't held on the dizzy driveshaft...the gear is part of the oil pump driveshaft and the dizzy just has a slotted drive...
Click to expand...

X2, thank you txstang84, I am putting my money on the timing chain chumped off.... I have see a cam brake in the middle before, thus why the fuel pump is still pumping .. I hope it's as simple as a new timing chain and gear replacement..
 
You cant know you're getting fuel to the carb unless you crack the supply line fitting.
You might eventually use up the fuel that was already in it with the acellerator pump operation.
Just trying to help
 
The cam drives the distributor drive gear and the oil pump by way of a hex shaft on the end of the drive gear. See the pic in xtangs post? That flat blade on the bottom of the distributor shaft is the only thing that drives the distributor!! First thing I would do is pull the distributor and check to make sure that tang is there and the distributor spins freely. Next, have someone crank the motor and look down the hole to make sure the gear is spinning. If it's not, you may have a busted timing chain as mentioned above. You can also back out the gear with a large flat bladed screwdriver and check the shaft to make sure the oil pump is still being driven. My bet is on the timing chain!! Geof
 
If the timing chain is broken you will not have any gas flow. Assuming a mechanical gas pump.
 
RedFish said:
I just noticed in your sig that this is a manual trans car too. That leads me a little more toward the timing chain.
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Sorry, but I believe you looked at Chryslerfat's signature....mine is an automatic.

txstang84 said:
In SBMs, the gear isn't held on the dizzy driveshaft...the gear is part of the oil pump driveshaft and the dizzy just has a slotted drive...
Click to expand...

I didn't know that. I thought the gear was part of the dizzy. Just goes to show my limited knowledge on mopar engines.

txstang84 said:
The cam turns the oil pump driveshaft, the slotted drive for the dizzy sits in the top of that driveshaft.

You sure the dizzy doesn't spin when you turn the engine over? If it was running fine after your close call then just suddenly died...that's kinda odd. I could see if the shaft sheared, but usually if that happens, the shaft will freewheel when you spin the rotor. Can you even get the few degrees of rotation from the timing plate, or is that locked up too?
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I'm positive the distributor isn't spinning when I turn it over. I was able to look through the windshield and see that it wasn't spinning. I always had a helper looking. I didn't try moving the timing as I was trying to diagnose it in a parking lot and quit when I realized it wasn't an easy roadside fix. I ended up towing it home.

cosgig said:
The cam drives the distributor drive gear and the oil pump by way of a hex shaft on the end of the drive gear. See the pic in xtangs post? That flat blade on the bottom of the distributor shaft is the only thing that drives the distributor!! First thing I would do is pull the distributor and check to make sure that tang is there and the distributor spins freely. Next, have someone crank the motor and look down the hole to make sure the gear is spinning. If it's not, you may have a busted timing chain as mentioned above. You can also back out the gear with a large flat bladed screwdriver and check the shaft to make sure the oil pump is still being driven. My bet is on the timing chain!! Geof
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That's exactly what I was going to do. Gonna have to wait till this weekend to "dig" into it. I was really enjoying the car and was hoping to refrain from putting new parts in until winter.

Some great advice guys. Thanks. I'll post an update when I get it worked out. Also, will any small block mopar LA engine drop in, or would there have to be modifications done to make certain ones work? Just in case i decide to go with a different engine.
 
Well, the 340 will present some exhaust problems, as the early A stock exhaust manifolds have a smaller port than that of the heads of the 340. The drivers side manifold in an early A has that radius turn to clear the steering shaft and is the only manifold I know of that will clear the shaft. Headers will certainly facilitate this difference though!!

If you're thinking of using a 360, you will run across the difference in weighted flexplates needed to mate the motor to the trans, as the 360 is externally balanced. The snout of the torque converter is also smaller on the 273 so the converter will need to be changed if using any other crank than an early 273. The 360 will also need a rear sump oil pan.

Any LA motor will fit in just as the 273 does,,, it's all in the accesories. A later LA motor with the aluminum timing cover and brackets will cause you headaches due to the radiator inlet configuration, so a switch to the early waterpump and housing with your original brackets would solve that issue. Stuff like that you will need to tweak when your final combo is purchased!!

Lets get this problem solved first, I think with a little investigation and maybe nominal output of $$$ the car will be on the road again quickly!! Keep us updated, Geof
 
chryslerfat said:
Any update?
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I started to pull the dizzy on Sunday, but my brother needed help on a few things and that killed my "Mopar time". Yesterday, I tried to pull it, but it wouldn't budge. No movement up/down or radial. I tapped it with a dead blow hammer, put a piece of wood at the base and tapped that, tried turning it with channel locks, penetrating oil, and even a small pry bar. It's stuck pretty good. I've been really busy with kid's baseball and 3rdI shift. Hoping to get my uncle out to give me a hand.

Any suggestions for pulling a stubborn distributor?
 
Maybe have someone "rock" the engine back and forth with a socket on the crank, while you pull on the dizzy?
 
If you get it rotating in the block first then rotating back and forth with upward force will get it out. It can take a long chisel and a hammer against the bottom flange to get the initial movement..
 
There is jack holding the distributor in the block except maybe an O ring. If the T?C failed, you will have no cam movement. Even if the pump seized, the hex would just strip or shear the oil pump shaft, but the cam would still turn the large helical gear that the dizzy sits in with its flat tang. Hit the side of the base of the distributor with a chisel at an angle like your trying to unscrew it, it should turn and break free. I had a Honda camshaft break right in the middle, no oil to bearing and it seized, breaking the cam from the oil pump drive.
 
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