1967 Match Race ~ Barracuda 383/280 HP vs. Mustang GT 390/320 HP

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UDUST81 said:
yeah if you ever look up stuff from the movie the directors even state that they had to have the charger sandbang the whole chase just so the mustang could keep up check this out http://www.motortrend.com/classic/f...earls_top_10_movie_cars_in_a_supporting_role/
:burnout:
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Cool info!

It's always nice when the history bears out what you hope to be true. Don't get me wrong, I love pretty much all American performance cars, especially Mustangs... but the fact that the big Charger, was so much more capable than the "hero car" it's hard not to smile.

Like many of you guys, I have an occasionally irrational preference for Mopars even when they're not technically the most capable car in a comparison or in a given segment....but as it turns out, they often were. :D
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
Unfortunately,

The 1967 383 {4-Barrel} and 383 {2-Barrel} Camshafts were 'the same'.

* Lift............ .425"/.437"
* Duration..... 256*/260*
* Overlap....... 32*


ECCH !!!!
Click to expand...

This is one of the things that makes classic muscle so cool... there's a golden opportunity just sitting in front of you. Just swap the cam and enjoy.

Take a modern Mustang 5.0L- you can reflash the ECU for a few extra hp (and run the risk of BBQing your #8 piston)...but the engine is fairly optimized right out of the box with excellent flowing heads, 11:1 compression, carefully matched intake manifold, variable cam timing (intake and exhaust) and an excellent set of factory shorty headers...

They're darned good in stock form but the downside is that when you want more, you have to add boost (or nitrous) to make a notable impact on the rwhp. :(
 
Mr GTX,

1967 NHRA National Records

C/S .......... 12.72 @ 109.10 MPH

C/SA........ 13.38 @ 104.20 MPH

A properly set up 1967 Barracuda 'Fastback' 383 could be competetive for 'C/SA'
 
O-M-R,

So few of the 1967 Barracuda 383 cars built.

Finding them at the Drag Strip in 1967.........none to be seen.
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
1967 Ford Mustang GT {390/320 HP}

Shipping Weight....................... #3155 lbs.

Weight Distribution.....
Front........................... 60.3% = {1901 lbs.}
Back............................ 39.7% = {1254 lbs.}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compared to;

1967 Mustang GT {289/271 HP } 'K-Code'....... #2930 lbs.
Click to expand...

And users on this site ding the 69 440 cars for being too nose heavy...
 
H20loo said:
They didn't have a civic back then-it was a N360 that was replaced by the civic In the 70s It's 1/4 mile time was about 30 seconds, probably the same as a Schwinn. ...
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Actually, the N360 was replaced by the AN600 600cc four stroke, then the CVCC. 0-60 times were a little better but I still got beat by an AMC Hornet 6 wagon with 750 lbs of teenagers in it! But I could take corners like no ones business!
 
Re:Bullit movie cars
Both vehicles had reinforced frames and suspensions, but power wise the Mustang was so hopelessly out classed that McQueen told Dave Williams to send the car out and get more power into it. They took it to a Ford performance shop where the heads were cut for more compression, a competition valve job and some mild porting were done also. They installed an Edelbrock intake, holley 750 and Sig Erson cam. Also had a Scheiffer clutch setup because McQueen had pretty much fried it screwing around with the car previously. With the changes, it was a fairly good match for the stock Charger.
 
'Bullit' Mustang

Are you aware, that they left a 'friggin' Open-Rear in the car.

A 3.25 Gear-Ratio.

They supposedly 'hopped-up' the Engine and Clutch Set-Up and left
an Open-Rear in that Mustang GT.
 
MRGTX said:
Cool info!

It's always nice when the history bears out what you hope to be true. Don't get me wrong, I love pretty much all American performance cars, especially Mustangs... but the fact that the big Charger, was so much more capable than the "hero car" it's hard not to smile.

Like many of you guys, I have an occasionally irrational preference for Mopars even when they're not technically the most capable car in a comparison or in a given segment....but as it turns out, they often were. :D
Click to expand...

A better match would have been a 428 powered Mustang, but since it was a mid-year offering in 1968, it was probably too late in the movie's production schedule to use it. But really it doesn't matter which car was actually faster, the script said the Mustang was! :D
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
'Bullit' Mustang

Are you aware, that they left a 'friggin' Open-Rear in the car.

A 3.25 Gear-Ratio.

They supposedly 'hopped-up' the Engine and Clutch Set-Up and left
an Open-Rear in that Mustang GT.
Click to expand...

Actually the Mustang had a limited slip, but McQueen had beaten the living crap out of the car so bad that by production time the clutches were in pretty bad shape. If you have a DVD that shows in "special features" the antics that he and Bill Hickman, who drove the Charger, were performing prior to shooting, it's a wonder there was any gears in the rear end, never mind limited slip clutches.
 
A 428CJ wouldn't made any difference except causing the mustang to completely destroy it's suspension in the jump scenes and plow into the corners with that extra weight. That engine was a dud compared to the 68-70 440s.
 
I would think since the 390 & 428CJ are both from the FE family, that there wouldn't be any difference in weight.
 
mikedevore said:
I would think since the 390 & 428CJ are both from the FE family, that there wouldn't be any difference in weight.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think the 428 CJ actually weighs a little less than the 325 hp 390.

Edit: my mistake, thought they were aluminum intakes vs the 390's iron. Both were iron.

Doesn't matter...'68 428 Mustang was a monster and it would have been more than a match for a 440 R/T

http://www.428cobrajet.org/pomona
 
1968 Ford Mustang 'Fastback'

Mustang GT 390...... #3340 lbs.
Cobra-Jet 428......... #3362 lbs.

Both 'FE Engines' came thru with the Boat Anchor Cast Iron Intake {Weight = 85 lbs.}
 
Friend of mine had a '68, 428 Shelby Stang. Ran heads up with another buddies '67 SS396/325 in the quarter. Both 4 speeds.
 
MRGTX said:
This is one of the things that makes classic muscle so cool... there's a golden opportunity just sitting in front of you. Just swap the cam and enjoy.

Take a modern Mustang 5.0L- you can reflash the ECU for a few extra hp (and run the risk of BBQing your #8 piston)...but the engine is fairly optimized right out of the box with excellent flowing heads, 11:1 compression, carefully matched intake manifold, variable cam timing (intake and exhaust) and an excellent set of factory shorty headers...

They're darned good in stock form but the downside is that when you want more, you have to add boost (or nitrous) to make a notable impact on the rwhp. :(
Click to expand...

I knew they had problems with the #7 and 8 pistons getting cooked in the '03/04 4.6 4V Cobras because the intercooler lacked consistent cooling in the left aft corner, but I can't say that I heard anything about cooking the #8 in the new 5.0s...completely different engine from the 4.6 it replaced...only things staying the same are the bellhousing bolt pattern, engine mount fittings, bore spacing, rod length, and bearing diameters. Everything else is different.

I'm also not terribly sure about the comment regarding a "notable" impact on the rwhp...what do you consider notable? 20? 40? 100? The computer tuning on those new cars can still be worth up to 40 hp over stock...and to be quite fair here, I'd like to see you tune ONLY the carb and timing on any engine be it new/old, carbed/injected, whatever and get more than 40-50hp from absolutely stock.

You made a reference to cams...cams can be swapped in the new cars just like with any other...they're just significantly more expensive and more complex when you have to change 4 of them. Heads can be changed, but you'll be working specifically with [ported] factory castings because no aftermarket option exists for the new 5.0s (and likely won't...ever), headers are widely available and are worth 20-30hp over stock...in short, all the same modifications can be done with newer hot rods. The new hemis are no exception either...cams, ported heads, exhaust, modified intakes, etc are all still available...just really frikkin pricey.
 
Ford Man

Shipping Weights 'Fastback' ________________1967 NHRA Class_____1968 NHRA Class

1967 Mustang GT 390................. #3186 lbs. ........ B/S or SS/E.................. D/S or SS/F
1968 Mustang GT 390................. #3340 lbs. .............. ~ ............................ E/S or SS/F
1968 Mustang Cobra-Jet 428...... #3362 lbs. ............. ~ ............................ C/S or SS/E
 
Post #32 shows a/c on a big block mustang.

Interesting.

Couldn't get that on the big block A.
 
txstang84 said:
I knew they had problems with the #7 and 8 pistons getting cooked in the '03/04 4.6 4V Cobras because the intercooler lacked consistent cooling in the left aft corner, but I can't say that I heard anything about cooking the #8 in the new 5.0s...completely different engine from the 4.6 it replaced...only things staying the same are the bellhousing bolt pattern, engine mount fittings, bore spacing, rod length, and bearing diameters. Everything else is different.

I'm also not terribly sure about the comment regarding a "notable" impact on the rwhp...what do you consider notable? 20? 40? 100? The computer tuning on those new cars can still be worth up to 40 hp over stock...and to be quite fair here, I'd like to see you tune ONLY the carb and timing on any engine be it new/old, carbed/injected, whatever and get more than 40-50hp from absolutely stock.

You made a reference to cams...cams can be swapped in the new cars just like with any other...they're just significantly more expensive and more complex when you have to change 4 of them. Heads can be changed, but you'll be working specifically with [ported] factory castings because no aftermarket option exists for the new 5.0s (and likely won't...ever), headers are widely available and are worth 20-30hp over stock...in short, all the same modifications can be done with newer hot rods. The new hemis are no exception either...cams, ported heads, exhaust, modified intakes, etc are all still available...just really frikkin pricey.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying you're specificially wrong on any of these points but I am almost 4 years into my Coyote 5.0 ownership and I have run aftermarket tunes and looked into all of the other standard mods out there... the bottom line is that there is no "low hanging fruit" and your guesses on the benefits of these mods are overly optimistic. The dollar:benefit ratio is very poor with bolt-on parts for these motors compared to a 383 4bbl Barracuda hobbled by a 2bbl cam...and that's what I was trying to get at.

Interesting that the earlier modular V8s had the cooling issue for those two pistons. The problem with the 5.0s came from tuners messing with A:F and rasing the knock sensor threshold...and the #8 being the most vulnerable due to the coolant path...probably similar to the 4.6Ls.... Quite a few motors burned up #8 before they figured it out. You can reliably get 20 rwhp out of a tune alone but a 5% increase mostly only shows up on paper.

My 5.0 :)
 

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Comparisons

1967 Barracuda 'Fastback
* 273/235 HP...... #2940 lbs.
* 383/280 HP...... #3202 lbs.


1967 Mustang GT 'Fastback
* 289/225 HP ...... #2930 lbs.
* 390/320 HP...... #3186 lbs.
 
I too have read of 5.0 coyote problems with the #8 piston on F150 forums. It is a solid motor and the mustang version is a screamer.
 
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