1968 GTS 340 with Carter AVS 4966S

-
I wouldn't put anything new on that isn't broken.

If the cooling system leaks, then there won't be enough pressure to increase the boiling point.
Could be as simple as a cap leaking or not holding pressure.
Run the engine with the radiator cap off. Starting cold of course.
You should be able to observe (feel and see) the coolant flow. First it will be in the bypass hose and heater hoses only.
when the thrmostat opens you will see the coolanat coming into the top tank and the pump sucking the coolant level down.
You'll have to shut the engine off then or put the cap on.

Engine RPM for slow idle.
Could be many things. Without being there best we can do is give you some general approaches.
Running rough could be the timing but I'm going to guess lean (mixture ratio) or too little air (throttles closed too much).
Look for other sources of air bypassing the entry through the choke horn such as PCV or any other connections that exposes to manifold vacuum. For example there may be an external connection for the choke pull off.

Rather than hunting for various maybe this or that, begin by looking at the spark plug for clues.
Then after fixing the cooling system leak(s), start with a clean set of plugs.

As far as the correct initial timing goes, it will depend on the distributor. If the tag is still on the distributor, see if it matches the number in the shop manual. I can tell you this much. If the timing was advancing very quickly between 750 and 1100 rpm, thats a good indication the mechanism is intended for a low initial timing. If it seems very stable in that range, then it may be that it is non-smog and should use initial around 12* BTDC. (There were no factory non-CAP 340 cars sold in US that I'm aware of)

Plymouth factroy timing was supposed to fall in the range shown here. Initial could be set a degree or two higher or lower as needed but the recommended initial was 5 BTDC (auto) and TDC (manual).
upload_2021-6-7_9-30-33.png


Every year there were changes made to the beginning of the advance, and sometimes Dodge used a slightly different initial than Plymouth.

Every engine combination had different timing needs. So a distributor for a different engine will have a different advance. Replacement distributors are too often a mix of parts - close enough for them to sell as one size fits all.
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To see the differences between a non CAP and CAP (Clean Air Package) advance on a high performance small block, take a look at the specifications for the 1967 4 bbl 273.
upload_2021-6-7_9-45-36.png


You can see why its important to know something about the distributor's advance before choosing the initial timing.
Also how it can be helpful when you can't get the rpms slow enough to set the initial.
For an example: Lets take your 340 and assume that it has an unaltered distributor from a 1968 340 automatic. At 900 rpm you set the initial at close to TDC. I'll call it 1* BTDC.
upload_2021-6-7_9-59-3.png


That means the timing at other rpms will be something like shown with the dotted line.
upload_2021-6-7_10-2-1.png


So for that distributor, set the timing at 900 rpm to be somewhere between 5 and 12 BTDC.
Lets say we set it for 9.5* BTDC at 900 rpm; then the rest of the timing will look something like shown with this dotted line.
upload_2021-6-7_10-13-20.png
 
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Hi Mattax, thank you very much for your detailed answer. Here is my reply:

Parts:
Since I am in Austria/Europe parts are pretty hard and long lasting to get (and expensive). So I wanted to change most important parts upfront.

Cooling System:
I will check the cooling system as instructed by you, but i think nevertheless i will need a new radiator or maybe I can get it fixed. From my point of view the car gets really hot really fast but the temp gauge tells something else. Today I am going to check the temp sensor, maybe I can find something. What would you recommend: Fix original radiator (and install electrical fan), replace radiator with e.g one from champion, replace radiator core.

Engine RPM for slow idle:
Might be, but I do not think that there is air bypassing. I guess that the idle mixture screws are not correct. But what is the correct sequence for adjustment? I thought 1.) timing, 2.) rpm, 3.) carb (e.g. idle mixture screw) repsectively combination of 2.) & 3.) but first definitely timing. Do you suggest another approach?

Distributor:
I was/am pretty dumb. I really thought every distributor works best at TDC for idling. I checked and the one I got is not the original one because it has no batches, labels etc. and no vacuum unit. This also means it has a fixed timing, am I right?
I already have a Proform electronic distributor wiht vac unit in the work shop, I will install it (together with new spark plugs) and try again AFTER I took care of the colling system.

Looking forward to your answer!
Thanks again.
Best Chris
 
Parts:
Since I am in Austria/Europe parts are pretty hard and long lasting to get (and expensive). So I wanted to change most important parts upfront.

I think I understand what you are stating. If a part fails, it can be difficult, expensive or take a long time to get a replacement.
Unfortunately many new parts are inferior that the originals. Thats why I suggest judging each part on its condition. Regardless, having a plan for replacment or repair will also be a good idea. Perhaps some of the other FABO members in the EU and UK can help out.

Cooling System:
I will check the cooling system as instructed by you, but i think nevertheless i will need a new radiator or maybe I can get it fixed. From my point of view the car gets really hot really fast but the temp gauge tells something else. Today I am going to check the temp sensor, maybe I can find something. What would you recommend: Fix original radiator (and install electrical fan), replace radiator with e.g one from champion, replace radiator core.
This is something I have strong opinions on. Generally its best to fix the original even if it means a new core (most expensive). Mostly for the reasons mentioned above, new is often not made better in terms of fit or material. But what is original? Maybe your car does not have the original radiator?
Radiators up through 1969 have a distinct top tank. The bottom tank has an outlet that is on the left side, which matches the short cast iron water pump inlet used through 1969. The fan and fan shroud also match the spacing and the fan blades have a notch in the corner to clear the top tank.

Electric fans are (in my opinion) a problem. They often do a poorer job than the mechanical fans. They require more electric power than the original electrical systems were made to handle. The engines in these cars have plenty of torque and power and the water pump has to be turned mechanically anyway.

For example this is an original radiator for a 1968 with a 318 or 340 v-8
upload_2021-6-8_15-17-43.png


Near the stamped number there should be a specific part number soldered on.
It may be on the back or the top of the tank.
upload_2021-6-8_15-21-55.png


Like this restored one
upload_2021-6-8_15-22-32.png


White arrow points to a notch in the fan blade. This particular fan was used with a fan clutch.
upload_2021-6-8_15-25-53.png


Engine RPM for slow idle:
Might be, but I do not think that there is air bypassing. I guess that the idle mixture screws are not correct. But what is the correct sequence for adjustment? I thought 1.) timing, 2.) rpm, 3.) carb (e.g. idle mixture screw) repsectively combination of 2.) & 3.) but first definitely timing. Do you suggest another approach?
The process is iterative. In other words you will likely need to repeat the steps several times. When everything was new from the factory, then the timing from 600 to maybe 750 rpm would not change. So a technician could begin with engine idling very close to specified rpm, set the timing, and then adjust the rpm if needed. Then fuel mixture would be adjusted to specification. There was very little adjustment range available in the cars with emissions packages. For several years the idle mixture screws used for tune up were actually idle air bleed adjustments. On those carburetors the idle fuel mixture needle valves were only accessed for major overhauls.

Since you are tuning a mystery distributor, and since the engine can not idle at 700 rpm, the first iteration will have to be a guess. Measuring and plotting timing at several (or many) different rpms, without touching the distributor, will let us see the advance curve. Then you can make a better guess.

Distributor:
I was/am pretty dumb. I really thought every distributor works best at TDC for idling. I checked and the one I got is not the original one because it has no batches, labels etc. and no vacuum unit. This also means it has a fixed timing, am I right?
I already have a Proform electronic distributor wiht vac unit in the work shop, I will install it (together with new spark plugs) and try again AFTER I took care of the colling system.
Well you are learning. :) One nice thing about learning now is the availablity of Chrysler training material on the internet.*

Distributor on engine: The lack of vacuum advance only means there is no vacuum advance. Take a picture with the cap and with the cap removed and we can probably identify it.
It could be a lean burn distributor, it could be a race distributor, or it could be a regular distributor someone modified.

The Proform distributor will be a similar situation to your mystery distributor. I don't know what the advance looks like. Only thread about them I found quickly is this one.
You will have to measure the timing to know what the advance curve looks like. Vacuum advance is very helpful for part throttle performance and economy, but can only be implemented if the mechanical timing is correct.

I had been assuming the car had the original points or dual points distributor to go with the original (or similar) carburetor.
Now you are into hot rodding.
If there is no regulatory need for the CAP, then timing at idle can be 10 to 12 BTDC as the factroy did for the 1967 273 4 bbl. But the timing at higher rpms can't adjvance too quickly if vacuum advance is to be used. If you find the distributor advances quicker than shown in the gray, don't connect the vacuum advance.
upload_2021-6-8_16-14-30.png


When you get the engine idling slow enough that turning the idle mix screws has an effect, turn them out (richer) until the engine smooths, then turn them in slowly. As soon as the engine slows down, turn them back a 1/8 or quarter turn.


*
Mechanical or Centrifical Advance
Compensates for the reduced amount of time (miliseconds) available for the burn as rpm increases. Its not directly proportional because combustion efficiency increases with rpms. This means decreased burn time as rpms climb. A 'low performance' 318 usually has good lower rpm efficiency, but does not gain as much efficiency with increasing rpm. A 'high performance engine' is usually the opposite, poor - slow combustion at low rpms, but more efficient and quicker pressure development at higher rpms.

From Chrysler Master Technician's Service Conference.
upload_2020-1-3_10-43-26-png-png-png.png


Vacuum Advance:
upload_2020-1-3_10-49-52-png-png-png.png


p. 6 Ignition System Analysis (Session 259) from the Master Technician's Service Conference
 
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Hi Mattax,
sry for my late reply but this was lots of information and stuff to check on my side, but now I can give you the following update:

Radiator:
Is original. It has the same stamped number as on your pic: 38086. The other number is not readable anymore, but the radiator looks the same as yours.

20210612_210105.jpg


20210612_210119.jpg


20210612_210126.jpg


Fan blade:
Is original I assume. I compared your pic to my fan, looks similar dispite the notch.
No fan clutch used, should one be in place?

20210612_210051.jpg


Distributor:
Sry, forgot to take a pic. I will submit later, but at least I can tell you now that my new electric distributor has a mechanical advance of 22 degrees and an adjustable vacuum advance.

Cooling Issue:
Thanks a lot for all the information on the timing, but at first I need to solve the cooling issue and with this I have some other questions:

I took the radiator out to detect where it is leaking and wanted to inspect the water pump and thermostat.
There was no thermostat used AND the waterpump was short circuited. Since the heating was removed someone connected the outlest of the waterpump directly to the engine.
What shocked me most was the situation in the opening of the thermostat...lots of rust and rust-mud. I assume the water channels are jammed with this stuff.
-) Any suggestion how to flush and clean the cooling system best?
-) I read of citric acid and Bars Nural. What are your thoughts on that?
-) Should I just pull the freeze plugs and flush with high pressure cleaner? I do not want to completely disassemble the engine.
-) Do you think it is possible to get it clean at all?

Below please find the related pictures. Looking forward reading from you.
Best Chris

20210605_163147.jpg


20210612_201304.jpg


20210612_201327.jpg




Oh... and hear is a pic of what came out of the radiator.

20210612_211941.jpg
 
Last edited:
Hi Mattax,
sry for my late reply but this was lots of information and stuff to check on my side, but now I can give you the following update:

Radiator:
Is original. It has the same stamped number as on your pic: 38086. The other number is not readable anymore, but the radiator looks the same as yours.

View attachment 1715751548

View attachment 1715751549

View attachment 1715751550

Fan blade:
Is original I assume. I compared your pic to my fan, looks similar dispite the notch.
No fan clutch used, should one be in place?

View attachment 1715751547

Distributor:
Sry, forgot to take a pic. I will submit later, but at least I can tell you now that my new electric distributor has a mechanical advance of 22 degrees and an adjustable vacuum advance.

Cooling Issue:
Thanks a lot for all the information on the timing, but at first I need to solve the cooling issue and with this I have some other questions:

I took the radiator out to detect where it is leaking and wanted to inspect the water pump and thermostat.
There was no thermostat used AND the waterpump was short circuited. Since the heating was removed someone connected the outlest of the waterpump directly to the engine.
What shocked me most was the situation in the opening of the thermostat...lots of rust and rust-mud. I assume the water channels are jammed with this stuff.
-) Any suggestion how to flush and clean the cooling system best?
-) I read of citric acid and Bars Nural. What are your thoughts on that?
-) Should I just pull the freeze plugs and flush with high pressure cleaner? I do not want to completely disassemble the engine.
-) Do you think it is possible to get it clean at all?

Below please find the related pictures. Looking forward reading from you.
Best Chris

View attachment 1715751544

View attachment 1715751545

View attachment 1715751546



Oh... and hear is a pic of what came out of the radiator.

View attachment 1715751560
There is a lot of rust in the cooling system. It is too late now, but I would have run some cooling system flush through your engine to get rid of all the garbage before replacing the radiator.
 
There is a lot of rust in the cooling system. It is too late now, but I would have run some cooling system flush through your engine to get rid of all the garbage before replacing the radiator.

Thx, nothing I could not do even now. I would just put everything back into place. Can you recommend something to flush the system?
 
Thx, nothing I could not do even now. I would just put everything back into place. Can you recommend something to flush the system?
Not sure what might be available on your side of the pond, but I typically use Prestone super flush (something like this: Prestone® Radiator Flush + Cleaner - Prestone® Total Protection). Pour it in and run the engine with the heater on and drive it for a couple of hours if possible, then drain and let the engine cool down completely. When cold, refill with distilled water and let it run until hot, then drain again and let it get cold. Check to see if the drain water is now clear and not rusty looking. If it looks good, then fill with distilled water again mixed with the appropriate antifreeze product.
 
Radiator:
Is original. It has the same stamped number as on your pic: 38086.
Good. Another place to look is on the back of the tank.
upload_2021-6-14_16-23-5.png


upload_2021-6-14_16-24-14.png


sry for my late reply
It's OK. I've been busy too.

Fan blade:
Is original I assume. I compared your pic to my fan, looks similar dispite the notch.
No fan clutch used, should one be in place?
I'm not sure about that fan being original for your car. It is a fan intended for use with a spacer.
We can begin by looking in the shop manual to see if it is possible oriignal option.
A seven blade fan should move plenty of air.

Distributor:
Sry, forgot to take a pic. I will submit later, but at least I can tell you now that my new electric distributor has a mechanical advance of 22 degrees and an adjustable vacuum advance.
Electronic will almost certainly have a different advance curve than factory. We'll come back to this when you are ready.

Cooling Issue:
Thanks a lot for all the information on the timing, but at first I need to solve the cooling issue and with this I have some other questions:

I took the radiator out to detect where it is leaking and wanted to inspect the water pump and thermostat.
There was no thermostat used AND the waterpump was short circuited. Since the heating was removed someone connected the outlest of the waterpump directly to the engine.
What shocked me most was the situation in the opening of the thermostat...lots of rust and rust-mud. I assume the water channels are jammed with this stuff.
-) Any suggestion how to flush and clean the cooling system best?
-) I read of citric acid and Bars Nural. What are your thoughts on that?
-) Should I just pull the freeze plugs and flush with high pressure cleaner? I do not want to completely disassemble the engine.
-) Do you think it is possible to get it clean at all?

Below please find the related pictures. Looking forward reading from you.
Best Chris

I'm not sure what you mean be the water pump short circuited. There should be a bypass hose.
No thermostat means a previous owner had a problem and was experimenting to find a possible fix.

With the engine in the car it is very difficult to remove and reinstall most of the freeze plugs.
There may be one or two you can access. Take a good look before doing that.

If you are lucky, there may be drain plugs on the block. And if you are lucky one or both will work. They are the same type of drain plug as used on the radiator.

The only times I have tried to flush out a coolant system all I did was put a garden hose and use running water.
I think I've used some sort of cleaner sold by Prestone but it was a long time ago and don't recall the results being good or bad.
Sorry I'm of limited help there.

Get it as clean as you can. I would test for leaks with just water. After the system is leak free, drain and fill with 50/50 distilled water and inorganic inhibited coolant.
I don't know available IAT coolant is in your Austria. Here it is labelled Conventional, or Conventional Green and getting more difficult to find. But the newer organic acid technology (OAT) and hybrid OAT (HOAT) universal coolants fail to protect older systems. First the protection the provide develops slowly over time, and so only works well in a completely sealed system. Second, they have minimla or no requirements for protecting solder and copper.
 
I don't have a '68 Dodge shop manual.
This is the '68 Plymouth manual.
The spacer and fan may be correct. The spacer you can measure.
For the fan, functionally, the clearance is most important.
Someone here should know if that blade is correct for the non-clutch fans in '68.
upload_2021-6-14_17-7-58.png


On the four blade fans (used on the 6 cylinder engines) the tips are bent, so they all have differences in design detail. I don't know them all.
 
Hi guys,

I have a plan now:

I drained the radiator with loads of water and there was plenty of mud in it including a mixture of rust and mud which turned to something which looked like a leaf from a tree.
Since I will recore the radiatior anyway I am going to use acetic acid to clean the radiatior completely (I talked to a friend of mine who is chemist). After this I will reassamble everything and meantime use some radiator sealant to prevent from leaking again.
I already figured out that we have Prestone also here in Austria, so I am going to use it for a complete cooling system flush.
Then I will set the timing and adjust the carb and then recore the radiator.

I also found out that there are at least two licenced re-prints of repair manuals available (Dave Graham & Detroit Iron). Rockauto sells them for a reasonable price (CD or hard copy).

Now again some questions:
I am not yet sure about the fan clutch. A non thermal might be correct for my car, might also be a thermal one (I will probably know for sure when I get my repair manual but I would like to order the fan clutch along with the repair manual). Is there any problem if I just get a thermal clutch since I think that they work a little better than the non-thermal ones?
And do I need a fan clutch wrench for the replacement?

I'm not sure what you mean be the water pump short circuited. There should be a bypass hose.
No thermostat means a previous owner had a problem and was experimenting to find a possible fix.

When you have a look to my first picture of the complete engine you will notice that there is the by-pass hose installed but the other one going from the water pump should go to the heater box. In my case it goes directly to the engine where the hose coming back from the heater box should be.

As always => thanks a lot!
Best
Chris
 
Here is a trick a few of us do with the thermostats to let the air out of the block as you are filling it up with coolant with the thermostat in.

We take and drill a small 1/8" hole in it as an air bleed. Then you can pretty much pour in your 4 gallons of coolant without having to wait a long time for the air to burp out if it.

Some of the small blocks are real hard to get all of the air to burp out of them (and they overheat). This method you fill it up, then if you get close to 4 gallons in it you are good (probably 4 gallons with the heater core). Should be able to start it up, warm it up, let it cool down and the coolant shoud be at the same level as when you originally filled it.

Screenshot_20210618-023101_Gallery.jpg
 
Most stats have a jiggle valve or small cut out to bleed air out, no need for holes.

I would use a thermal clutch, more efficient.
 
Sounds like a good plan.
After this I will reassamble everything and meantime use some radiator sealant to prevent from leaking again.
I would be cautious about this. Use a product that can easily be cleaned out so it will not cause problems during soldering.
Old timers will use ground pepper to seal minor leaks.
The leak sealer used by GM on some of their problem engines has ginger and similar ground products.
upload_2021-6-18_8-36-49.png
upload_2021-6-18_8-37-28.png


Talks with the shop that will be recoring. These seem safe but they'll know from experience if some cause problems for their work.

I already figured out that we have Prestone also here in Austria, so I am going to use it for a complete cooling system flush.
OK. Just don't use Prestone's coolant as , at least in the US, they only offer a HOAT. Find a IAT. Around me, the easiset way to buy a conventional IAT coolant is the store branded stuff at Autozone. Everything else is "universal". :(

Then I will set the timing and adjust the carb and then recore the radiator.
Once its running, measure the timing at rpm from as slow as you can run it, and then at increasing rpm.
Then we can figure out what the initial ought to be.

Now again some questions:
I am not yet sure about the fan clutch. A non thermal might be correct for my car, might also be a thermal one (I will probably know for sure when I get my repair manual but I would like to order the fan clutch along with the repair manual). Is there any problem if I just get a thermal clutch since I think that they work a little better than the non-thermal ones?
I don't see a problem in concept.
The challenge will be in execution.
Critical will be the spacing of the clutch. You will need to find measurements of an original fan clutch for a 1967-69 small block (273/318/340). Then you can compare with the spacing of the various aftermarket replacement fan clutches. You would think they would make replacements with exactly the same dimensions. Do not count on it. They may, or they may just sell one that is 'close enough' in their opinion.
You will also need the matching fan. Those are relatively easy to find used. The part number is often still on the fan so sellers know what they are.
Finally you will need different attaching bolts for clutch to the water pump and the fan to the clutch. I'm assuming Unified (US) standard hardware may be more difficult to obtain in Austria than in US.
(Unfortunately I have a later engine and water pump in my '67 so can not offer the dimensions you'll need)

And do I need a fan clutch wrench for the replacement?
I've never used one.

When you have a look to my first picture of the complete engine you will notice that there is the by-pass hose installed but the other one going from the water pump should go to the heater box. In my case it goes directly to the engine where the hose coming back from the heater box should be.
Classic method of elimating a heater leak , or eliminating a heater completely. LOL.


You may find this 1968 Master Tech booklet Engine Temperature Control answers many of your questions.
https://www.mymopar.com/downloads/mtsc/251.pdf

A fairly complete list of the Master Tech series is here
Master Technician Service Conference - Chrysler's Training for Mechanics

Unfortunately that web page's links are somewhat of a mess right now.
So until that is fixed, use the above page as an index, and then go here to find the filmstrip/movie or booklet in pdf format.
Chrysler Master Tech Service Library – Browse Model Year – MyMopar
 
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Hi all together,
hope you are well, sry that it took so long to response but here is an update:

I followed almost all your suggestions and first took the radiator out and used acetic acid and let it react for a whole day, flushed it with loads of water and put it back in. Bought a new radiator cap and new hoses, filled the system with water and adjusted the timing and the carb. I managed to get a smooth idling with approx. 800rpm but I was ot able to get it any lower. For me this is fine for now, final adjustments will be done when use a exhasut gas analyzer after the rebuild.

Cooling system flush
In Austria and Europe we only get the cooling fluid from Prestone but not the cooling flush. I found something in an article of a quite famous European classic car magazine (Oldtimer Praxis) from 2008 or something. They tested and recommended a product from a german radiator manufacturer (AKS DASIS) based on amidosulfonic acid. This is proper for aluminium, copper and all kinds of metall. ==> let me know if anoybody is intereated and I will support

I poured it in the cooling system at let it react for five days, in between i started the motor once a day and let it warm up. After I drained and flushed the system for about half an hour straight with fresh water I refilled it with distilled water -> result is great! I mean the heater is now completely fucked but even with a heaviliy leaking heater core may temperature issue improved and even after a while idling temperature did not rise in a critical area.
Next step -> recore of heater incl. heat exchanger for heating (cause this on is now also leaking)

Quarter window regulator repair
Whilst I was waiting on parts, chemicals and so on I reworked the quarter window regulators incl. a fresh set of rollers => regulators work great again!

Repair Manual
FYI: rockauto sells licenced reprints for a pretty decent price, got me one => great!

Next steps
removing all mounted parts from the engine and remove engine, put it on a engine stand and renew all gaskets, waterpump, fuel pump, oil pump etc.

Questions: The typical engine lift plate looks a bit fragile from my point of view. I want to remove engine and transmission combined does this really work? Do you recommend a balancer?
What bolts should I use for the engine stand? I would like to order them upfront because bolts in inch are not that easiliy to get in Austria.

Thanks a lot!
Best
Christian
 
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