200R4 update

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Tom couldn't come down today, so I went in and pulled the seats and carpet so we can cut the hole for the floor shifter. I also ran the power, ground, speaker and RCA cables for the amp behind the rear seat. I ran them along the driver's door edge. You can't see a single wire anywhere, including the damn blue amp turn on wire I completely forgot about. I cleaned and painted the crossmember and my jack base. I really need to turn up the speed a bit. It is at my buddies shop, and it's tying up a bay. He hasn't said anything yet, but he will soon. It is a very busy shop. It has 11 hoists, 2 drive ons and 1 flat bay. The place is packed every hour of every day. This has to be costing him money. I will have to go down during the day and get things done as fast as possible so we can at least push it out of the way. Right now the steering is disassembled. I took pics of the tranny lines as they are run along the transmission. We need to get some spark plug wire spacers to keep them even and also attach mounts along the way to keep them in place. Oh yeah, we are going to cut the adapter plate more flat on the bottom, then Tom is going to make an inspection plate we can bolt on. As he says, I can bend aluminum, but I can't bend curves.
View attachment Transmission lines run.jpg

View attachment Transmission lines run 1.jpg
 
A standard GM G Body tranny cover (200, 200r4) should fit no problems.
 
Not much new. Took a pic of the painted crossmember. I ran all the wiring for the speakers and amps. I took out the seats and carpet and marked where I want the shifter. Guess what? It's right where the upper crossmember goes across the tunnel. I'll have to go forward or back. Back is probably better so I'm not reaching for the shifter. Tom cut and bent the pinch weld, so the entire set up is as high as it can go. We tried to test fit the headers, but as expected, they don't clear the GM tranny / starter mount and will have to go in before setting the engine in place. I've been there before, shoe horning everything together at one time. I'm hoping to have this beast mobile by the weekend. Not running maybe, but motor, tranny and headers in and all the steering components hooked back up.
View attachment Painted cross member.jpg
 
Mopar to ya said:
I also ran the power, ground, speaker and RCA cables for the amp behind the rear seat. I ran them along the driver's door edge. You can't see a single wire anywhere, including the damn blue amp turn on wire I completely forgot about. ]
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please tell me you routed the power wire on the passenger side opposite all the RCa's and stuff??

if not do so... other wise the subs will do all kinds of weird things...
 
I have been installing stereos and amps for 34 years. It's not an issue anymore with shielded cables. I could have easily done that, but there is no need. I run high quality wire and cable every time. Gold connections, and I solder and seal every wire connection. When I was 16 I used the twist and tape method, but only once.
 
Mopar to ya said:
I have been installing stereos and amps for 34 years. It's not an issue anymore with shielded cables. I could have easily done that, but there is no need. I run high quality wire and cable every time. Gold connections, and I solder and seal every wire connection. When I was 16 I used the twist and tape method, but only once.
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yea i cant afford the good wire but no twisty caps for sure lol
 
Not much to report except that the pinch weld is cut, the crossmember is in and the tranny now sits high and level. We tried again but can't get the headers in with the motor in place. I marked where I want the shifter and wo have to move it back a bit to clear the crossmember. In looking where the headers will go, I am a little worried about fitment because the 200R4 is much wider than the old 904. I guess we'll know in a couple days.
 
All right. Everything is where it needs to be. Test fitting is done, and tonight we pulled the motor and tranny back out. We held the headers to the manifold to see how they fit and they are block huggers, no doubt. One side is an oil filter heater, the other a starter heater. I am attaching a pic showing how the one side wraps around the oil filter. I also have today - the long awaited - pics of the cuts in the upper crossmember readily seen with the motor out. Bear in ming that I had just sprayed undercoating in these pics. I also have some pics of the pinch weld. We ended up not needing to notch it for the dipstick tube. Just folding it rearward was enough. Then we undercoated it as well. I pulled both intakes and swapped them. I am going with the RPM air gap intake. We are using my old Mopar Performance valve covers because they are smaller and will clear the brake booster. Plus they look better. We were concerned about height so we set the VC on with no gasket and turned the motor over by hand. No movement - they clear. We will do a little monkeying around on little stuff, then it all goes in permanently this weekend.

View of the upper crossmember cutaway looking from the front to the rear.
View attachment Cutaway upper crossmember final front.jpg

View of the upper crossmember cutaway looking from the rear to the front.
View attachment Cutaway upper crossmember final rear.jpg

Pinchweld folded. Tried different lighting. The pic doesn't show it well.
View attachment Cutaway upper and pinchweld fold final.jpg
View attachment Pinch weld fold final.jpg

Header on driver's side. Or, as we call it, the oil filter heater. Those headers are pretty!
View attachment Header fitment.jpg
 
An remote oil filter setup will cure one of your problems. How do the headers fit with that tranny?
 
I haven't had them in the car yet, but on the ground they clear everything on the tranny., including the cooler lines we made. I love that they give me access to the spark plugs. I never had that with my Hookers.
 
I have long felt the 200R4 was more desirable than the 700 to the point of installing one in my sister's '68 Camaro, but I also know unmodified examples of these transmissions are known to fail, even behind stock low horsepower 4.1 Cadillac grenades. You need to add aftermarket internals and valve bodies to give them any chance at a life, even behind a non high performance engine. At the very least they need a valve body from a Turbo Buick or Monte Carlo SS to shift properly.

When you add the need to modify the torsion bar crossmember to the expense of modifying and rebuilding the transmission to live behind any real torque and the cost of the adapter pieces, the decision for me in not choosing one for a Mopar A body becomes a no brainer. If I need to modify the torsion bar crossmember anyway, adding a little beef to a 518 that bolts directly to my motor is probably going to end up a far less expensive solution. Even installing a fairly new junkyard gen 3 Hemi and it's matching transmission might be in the same ballpark costwise as a building and installing a stroker LA and the 200R4 when everything all shakes out.

This thread has been a real eye opener, thanks for passing the information along, both good and bad, to help the rest of us.
 
twofosho said:
I have long felt the 200R4 was more desirable than the 700 to the point of installing one in my sister's '68 Camaro, but I also know unmodified examples of these transmissions are known to fail, even behind stock low horsepower 4.1 Cadillac grenades. You need to add aftermarket internals and valve bodies to give them any chance at a life, even behind a non high performance engine. At the very least they need a valve body from a Turbo Buick or Monte Carlo SS to shift properly.

When you add the need to modify the torsion bar crossmember to the expense of modifying and rebuilding the transmission to live behind any real torque and the cost of the adapter pieces, the decision for me in not choosing one for a Mopar A body becomes a no brainer. If I need to modify the torsion bar crossmember anyway, adding a little beef to a 518 that bolts directly to my motor is probably going to end up a far less expensive solution. Even installing a fairly new junkyard gen 3 Hemi and it's matching transmission might be in the same ballpark costwise as a building and installing a stroker LA and the 200R4 when everything all shakes out.

This thread has been a real eye opener, thanks for passing the information along, both good and bad, to help the rest of us.
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This transmission has been built by Art Car and is capable of 750 HP. I am pushing just over 500. The 700 tranny will not go in without serious tunnel mods, which I wanted to avoid. A 518 won't fit without mods anyway. Bolting to the motor is nice, but it won't fit anywhere else. If you want overdrive, few mods, better gearing and a strong tranny - this is a no brainer.
 
When preparing to change out the Camaro's transmission from the T350 I installed instead of the original powerglide when I built and installed it's 350 motor (from a six), I researched information on these transmissions intently and NEVER seriously considered a 700R4. The gear spread is lousy, causing excessive RPM drop in the lower gears. The longer length, position of the transmission mount, and case size can be a major headache to floorpan/tunnel/crossmember/driveline fitment, and I have read that a built 700 will split the case in half trying withstand the power levels built 200R4s are routinely used behind.

Your thread had me seriously considering using a 200R4 when I first started reading it, but I'm now convinced it's too much work and expense (for me) for the result. It's quite likely converting an automatic car to a clutch and installing a brand new world class T-5 would be a push money wise, as compared to installing the 200R4 behind a LA motor and putting it in an A body.

The only OD that will make it into one of my cars will be a manual. Another 833 for the Duster, and even though it's possibly more work than installing the 200R4, at least a T-5 in the other ones.

Actually, the 727 behind my 340 coupled to a lazy set of gears is looking more and more attractive.
 
twofosho said:
When preparing to change out the Camaro's transmission from the T350 I installed instead of the original powerglide when I built and installed it's 350 motor (from a six), I researched information on these transmissions intently and NEVER seriously considered a 700R4. The gear spread is lousy, causing excessive RPM drop in the lower gears. The longer length, position of the transmission mount, and case size can be a major headache to floorpan/tunnel/crossmember/driveline fitment, and I have read that a built 700 will split the case in half trying withstand the power levels built 200R4s are routinely used behind.

Your thread had me seriously considering using a 200R4 when I first started reading it, but I'm now convinced it's too much work and expense (for me) for the result. It's quite likely converting an automatic car to a clutch and installing a brand new world class T-5 would be a push money wise, as compared to installing the 200R4 behind a LA motor and putting it in an A body.

The only OD that will make it into one of my cars will be a manual. Another 833 for the Duster, and even though it's possibly more work than installing the 200R4, at least a T-5 in the other ones.

Actually, the 727 behind my 340 coupled to a lazy set of gears is looking more and more attractive.
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I understand the sentiment. This car is getting to be my personal money pit. But that being said, the only expense I ran into once the transmission was purchased was $30 in angle iron and a steel tube to make the crossmember. There have been some frustrations, but it meant a little more work yet no additional money. Things are moving fast now. The plan is to have this all in this weekend. Maybe not running, but definitely installed permanently.
 
Well, we switched intakes and valve covers. I went with the RPM Air Gap for better low end power, and went back to my Mopar Performance valve covers to clear the brake booster. I'm going to have to sell those expensive Moroso aluminum tall boys. I popped the MP covers on unbolted with no gasket and turned the engine over by hand to make sure they cleared. They do hit the manifold, which may be why they leaked on top of the manifold on my 318. We ground the lip off the MP covers and ground a bevel to match the intake. You can't see it, and it fits perfectly. We also put some emery cloth on a level and sanded the top of the covers and then buffed them with a polishing ball. Everything is swapped over, now we get ready to permanently install it on Sunday. I had to order $60 worth of shims to bring my crank pulley out far enough to line up.

View attachment engine with parts transfered.jpg

View attachment engine with parts transfered 1.jpg
 
Good luck with the install.Get that oil filter off and don,t forget to set your headers in first.Fitting my fenderwell headers in my Early-A was a joy...in/out,in/out numerous times.Shim if need be.:D
 
Yeah, I've had to shoehorn headers / motors / trannys before. The passenger side is easy. Looking at it, you would say there is no way they will go in on the driver's side. But with God's help and a lot of swearing, they will go. They fit very tight to the motor and tranny, so that will help a lot. I'm going to bone up on my cuss words tonight so I'll be prepared for tomorrow.
 
Gotta say, you have access to a lift. Why not just drop the front suspension bolt everything to together and lower the car on top of the motor and tranny? It would be a whole HELL of a lot easier then dropping in the standard way.
 
It isn't a whole lot easier. Much more to take off, and that's assuming the torsion bars will come out. I can use a leveler on the engine hoist and angle it the way we want. We talked about that originally and decided it was way more than we felt like doing. Maybe it will come to that, but I don't think so.
 
All right, I have been busy setting up and working the estate sale for my parents stuff. I haven't had much time, but got some stuff done. The main thing I need to report is that ********** IT'S IN! ********** There were and are some issues, but the important thing is that the motor, tranny and headers are mounted permanently in place. Everything now fits, and the floor shifter is mounted. Here's the issues we had:

The valve covers were too tall so we switched to the old MP covers. We had to grind them to clear the manifold. I was going to grind the manifold, but there isn't much material there. Now they fit properly and look perfect.

Struggled to find the right size cam seal as the old one was leaking oil.

Had to redo the transmission cooler lines to clear the headers.

Once everything was ready to go, we mounted the headers and checked starter fitment. TTi is supposed to be the best for fitment. They asked me what year block, what heads, what starter, etc ... The headers hit the starter and we had to use a hydraulic press to bend them a bit to fit. On the other side, they hit a casting bump on the block. We had to grind down the bump to clear.

The upcoming issues I see are:

When the collector is bolted onto the driver's side, it contacts the new crossmember we made. We can figure something out there pretty easily.

It looks like the steering linkage hits the headers. I need to play with it a bit more and see if it does and how badly. There are some marks on the header, but that may have been done when reinstalling the linkage or when the headers were laying in the engine bay while the motor was lowered in.

Now we move on with the externals such as the carb, distributor, MSD 6 box, alternator, power steering and cooling system, shifter cables, line locks, and TV cable. Then the rear leafs, subframe connectors, get the driveshaft built, and exhaust run. I am likely going to outfit the carb for E85 which I will put in a separate post. I can see the light of day here. It's going to come together very quickly. The steering linkage is back on, so it's a roller again. A few more days and it will almost look like a real car again! I have a lot of pics to post, so it will take a few posts to get them all in. The pics makes me realize the Dart broke down on the way in and I had it towed on a slushy, snowy day. I forgot to wash the engine compartment before dropping the motor in.

Tranny lines and homemade bracket. Also the header in place so we could test fit the starter. The header hit the starter.
View attachment Tranny line and bracket.jpg
View attachment Header on uninstalled motor.jpg

The new B&M shifter mounted on the hump.
View attachment Shifter installed.jpg
View attachment Shifter installed 1.jpg
View attachment Shifter installed 2.jpg

Motor installed. Sorry about the unwashed engine bay. Stupid me. The tranny dipstick clears very well. That was a concern - turned out it needn't have been.
View attachment Engine installed looking forward.jpg
View attachment engine installed looking rear.jpg
View attachment engine installed looking rear 1.jpg
View attachment Engine installed firewall view.jpg
 
More pics, mostly showing height clearance of the headers, and clearance along the sides. I still don't believe the damn things fit on the driver's side.

Here are views from the sides to show clearance. Look how accessible the spark plugs are! With my old Hookers you had to pull the headers to change the rear two plugs on each side!
View attachment Header clearance left side.jpg
View attachment Header clearance left side 1.jpg
View attachment Header clearance right side.jpg
View attachment Headers clearing right side.jpg

Here is a side view showing the collector height compared to the frame and also an underneath view of the height compared to the tranny pan.
View attachment Collector height with tranny pan.jpg
View attachment Height of headers.jpg
View attachment Crossmember and tranny final.jpg

And an undercarriage view.
View attachment Headers and under carriage.jpg
View attachment Headers and under carriage 1.jpg
View attachment Headers collector view.jpg
 
I take it back. The headers hit the steering everywhere. Steering shaft, torsion bar and linkage. This will be a *****. Going to shift the motor a bit, bend a bit, try different stuff to try and get clearance.
 
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