2012 5.7 in 71 Demon, what VVT settings?

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pghguy517

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Hi, about to chuck this motor in the trash, please help. I have a 71 Demon with a 2012 5.7 with VVT and a 6.4 cam, long tube headers, 727 trans w/stock converter, 3,23 gears, MS3 hemi gold box with Tunerstudio software with autotune. bought the car with all this already installed, so I don't know what settings came with the MS3.
I think I can figure out the timing and fuel, but the VVT settings are killing me.They seem to be the biggest problem at this time. Car will start cold with VVT in test mode, 100% duty, min-max set at 0/23 deg, but after it warms up it won't start again, slow to crank over and won't catch. when it does run, I take it off test and change the min/max to 0/60 deg and it runs ok with hold duty at 7.1% and steady VVT angle of about 49.1.
Per the MSextra manual I found the cam angle range while in test are 18.3 deg/100% duty and 70 deg/0% duty, any idea what all the VVT settings should be, including the hold/neutral duty and PID? First pic is setting that allow the car to start cold, second is settings after I get it to start and runs ok but won't restart after shutdown. Thanks in advance.


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Hi, about to chuck this motor in the trash, please help. I have a 71 Demon with a 2012 5.7 with VVT and a 6.4 cam, long tube headers, 727 trans w/stock converter, 3,23 gears, MS3 hemi gold box with Tunerstudio software with autotune. bought the car with all this already installed, so I don't know what settings came with the MS3.
I think I can figure out the timing and fuel, but the VVT settings are killing me.They seem to be the biggest problem at this time. Car will start cold with VVT in test mode, 100% duty, min-max set at 0/23 deg, but after it warms up it won't start again, slow to crank over and won't catch. when it does run, I take it off test and change the min/max to 0/60 deg and it runs ok with hold duty at 7.1% and steady VVT angle of about 49.1.
Per the MSextra manual I found the cam angle range while in test are 18.3 deg/100% duty and 70 deg/0% duty, any idea what all the VVT settings should be, including the hold/neutral duty and PID? First pic is setting that allow the car to start cold, second is settings after I get it to start and runs ok but won't restart after shutdown. Thanks in advance.


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View attachment 1715896229
Have you tried turning off the vvt to see if the no start after shut down continues
 
I don't know anything about your set-up. and
IDK if this will help, but I can half-azzed tune a carb, lol.
At the risk of talking thru my hat, to try to help a very frustrated guy, I offer this.
Firstly;
remember that your ECU is programmed for a specific fuel pressure. It doesn't actually have a sensor for that, so it is your job to make sure the rails are full of reasonably fresh pure gas and at the right pressure.
As for cranking; With the intake valves closing as early as is possible, the engine will crank the highest cylinder pressure. It will crank the slowest in this position, because the starter has to work against that pressure. As soon as it starts, it should really like that pressure. If it is possible, and I don't know that it is, it might be advisable to delay the closing of the intake valves during cranking, to decrease the cranking cylinder pressure, so it cranks easier and faster.
Your engine may even like the delayed valve closing all the way up to the stall rpm. but it may get doggy after that up to say 3000/3500, on the lower cylinder pressure. With TOO much cylinder pressure at too low an rpm, the throttle will tend to feel like an on/off switch. After about 3500rpm, you can again delay intake closing to increase your operating rpm. Just don't let it switch at an rpm or load setting that you happen to be cruising in for a significant amount of time. Like second gear at 35mph, lol.
As for Idle-Timing; It should Like a chitload of (see note-1) advance at idle, but by the time she hits stall rpm, the timing should be normalized for that style of engine. The more idle advance you give it, the less fuel you should be able to get away with BUT as soon as the throttle is tipped in; then, it may want to stumble, due to the lean AFR. So then; I think I would set the AIS somewhere far enough open to get say 700rpm at an arbitrarily chosen Idle Timing of say 16 degrees. Try to run a good amount of AIS, so the engine doesn't want to stall on closed-throttle decell.
As for cranking pumpshot;Your MS should have an adjustment for "pumpshot" based on various parameters. This calibration takes place the instant you turn the key from off to run.
The computer will start the fuel pump, check the baro sensor for air-density, check for engine speed, check the air and coolant temps, and find TDC. With the MS, I think you have to sync true engine-TDC inside the programming with an offset factor, so that advancing can be accurate. The ECU does not add timing as much as it subtracts retard; so if you get the offset wrong, the ignition-timing will be ALL wrong All the time.
Once the ECU knows all that; it will check the programmed base-maps, calculate the required cranking enrichment based on the measured data, add injector on-time for the inputs it read, open the AIS, set the timing, etc; and all this has to happen between the time the key passes from off to crank. Once it is cranking, the pump-shot goes in, and then the ECU goes back to the cam sensor and makes sure the engine is cranking and at what rpm. You may wish to hesitate when twisting the key to crank, lol. Speaking of which; (see note 2)
My factory Chevy Orlando computer delivers a pumpshot every time the key cycles from off to crank. If yours does too, then you can use that for a diagnostic. If you think the pumpshot is not enough, just cycle the key an extra time and see if it helps, then reprogram as may be required.
Note-1
I say it should like a chitload of Idle-timing; like 20/25 degrees. . That doesn't mean you should run it up there. 12 to 18 degrees Idle-timing should be fine with an automatic transmission, and 3.23s
The point is that the greater the Idle-Timing is, the more likely the engine is to stumble, because of the lean Idle AFR.
Note-2
The 1972 Mopar ignition switch has two ignition circuits feeding the factory ignition system; one each for crank and run. In your case you will have to marry them, but in the doing, you have to eliminate the feedback that will want to energize your starter relay, which could eventually fry your switch. The same procedure is done to run any NON-factory ignition system.
Note-3; other
1) If you have a magnetic pick-up in a distributor, make sure your timing-light strobes properly and that it advances smoothly with no unusual activity, which could indicate a reversed polarity.
2) make sure your fuel tank is vented.
3) I wouldn't try to pull fuel thru 50 year old fuel lines.
4) make sure the engine is coming up to temp and that the IAT is measuring correctly, not fooled by the open hood
5) hopefully you don't have one of them throttle bodies with the spring-loaded air-doors or the heated wire jobs, lol, cuz then I could be way off base. Hopefully you have a Speed/Density system where the ECU interprets sensor data and converts it to Air-density, which is the system I am most book-familiar with. All my modest experience comes from diagnosing poor-running/performing stock and mostly Chevy systems.

That's all I got man, hope it helps
Please be kind, I don't know a darn thing about your set-up, nor have I ever worked with a programmable EFI. I'm just trying to help. Hang around for a while and see if a professional tuner shows up.
 
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This sounds really close to the combination I'm putting together but I'll be using the 6Hemi and locking the VVT so I don't have to deal with that and using a Sniper carb injection. I'm swapping the cam and lifters to non VVT to make everything simple. I don't know anything about the system your running but it sounds more complicated than it's worth...just saying.
 
Ditch the vvt BS. You want gas mileage, get a prius and turn in your man card. That was not a sarcastic joke, I am dead serious.
 
Ditch the vvt BS. You want gas mileage, get a prius and turn in your man card. That was not a sarcastic joke, I am dead serious.

Too bad someone could help. Hope he got it figured.

VVT isn't just about MPG, it's also about more low end torque without giving up top end power. It's one of the reasons a 6.4 is a better motor than a 6.1.

Late to the show, but had to comment.
 
This sounds really close to the combination I'm putting together but I'll be using the 6Hemi and locking the VVT so I don't have to deal with that and using a Sniper carb injection. I'm swapping the cam and lifters to non VVT to make everything simple. I don't know anything about the system your running but it sounds more complicated than it's worth...just saying.

You know that the vvt motors have a different crank tone ring and the MDS controller won't work to run the ignition, right? They are '03 to '08 only.
 
You know that the vvt motors have a different crank tone ring and the MDS controller won't work to run the ignition, right? They are '03 to '08 only.
I haven't read anything about that...
 
I'm glad you said something. I read everything wrong when I was looking at it and it will not run anything newer than 2008 due to the reluctor and tone rings being different..
 
Sorry, not really. Maybe someday, but not so far.
I got tired of waiting on Holley to get the Terminator X back in stock. With with a Mega Squirt 3. Took 1 day to make the harness and ship it. EFI Source is on the ball with getting products shipped out, only took 4 days total to get it.
 
I got tired of waiting on Holley to get the Terminator X back in stock. With with a Mega Squirt 3. Took 1 day to make the harness and ship it. EFI Source is on the ball with getting products shipped out, only took 4 days total to get it.
I also went with the MS hemi gold box and harness from EFI source. The harness seam's to be made very well but did find the map sensor connector was wired backwards and gave me trouble getting it started. But after that it starts right up and the auto tune in Tuner studio worked quite well after a few miles of driving. I am still learning the tuning part a little at a time. Good luck with your project.
 
I also went with the MS hemi gold box and harness from EFI source. The harness seam's to be made very well but did find the map sensor connector was wired backwards and gave me trouble getting it started. But after that it starts right up and the auto tune in Tuner studio worked quite well after a few miles of driving. I am still learning the tuning part a little at a time. Good luck with your project.
Thanks for the info, I'll remember that if I run into trouble starting the car. It'll be about a month before the engine's in the car. Right now I'm prepping the engine compartment for paint.
 
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