222rwhp! boy is my face red.

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timopar

timopar

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Hi fellas, I feel I need some advise on this one.
I had my Valiant on the rollers a few weeks ago and Im very embarrassed to say it only made 222hp at the tyres.
Its got a 440 in it!!! I thought at least 250, I was praying for 280.
Anyway, my thoughts are that the exhaust is restricting it the most,
its only got early70's centre drop manifolds and 2 1/4" pipe into a single 3" with a hooker muff.

initially I bought a 1 7/8" weld up kit, but abandoned the idea when I found
id be killing ground clearance by about 4" :angry7: and any uni-body modification (eg: fenderwells)
will mean I have to run a cage to go faster than 12.50 :angry7:

the motor is a 10.5comp 440, unported 906's, factory iron 4bbl intake, 800 holley, 1" tapered spacer,
crappy exhaust manifolds and the cam is 235@50 .507" lunati, with 1.6 rockers so about .540" lift,
lunati recommend it put in at 104deg but I put it in at 102deg to try and stop reversion :eek:ops:

At this point I think Ill put the cam back to 104, build some headers for it and get myself a holley street dom intake for it.
what do you think? any feadback would be great, thanks Tim.
 
Definetly ditch the stock intake, that thing is a pig. Headers would be a huge inprovement too :toothy10: This alone would help, could always port the heads too. I would leave the cam in till you swap the intake and exhaust, that thing needs to breathe baby!!!!!
 
Did they check your A/F? what was your timing set at?
 
Well I can tell you Dad had a stock 375 rated 440 in a town and country wagon, it rollered at 300 to the tires on an old clayton water dyno back in 77.

So something is sick.... agree you should see 260-280 at leat.

Yep get at least a pair of 2 1/2 pipes, good muffs and a better intake as Keith says too. with that cam which is a little more than stock you are chocked up a bit I figure...
 
A/F was just a touch lean 13to 1 if I remember rite, that was with 40deg total and it made 205rwhp.
I dropped it back to 36deg, it went rich and made 196 or somethin, then I rejetted and it to 12.4 12.6 A/F in the tail pipe,
it made 222. I just bought a team G singleplain cheap so ill put it on when it arives,
the car is a RHD 65 valiant so headers will have to be custom made.
the real problem is no room for headers unless I go strait under the steering draglink, witch will give me ground clearance issues.
 
something is definitely not right. I have a stock bottom, stock headed smog 360 in mine with just a street dominator intake, edelbrock carb, shorty headers, and a lunati cam [email protected] and it made 276hp to the wheels. i think your single exhaust is choking it down big time. I would run dual 3" off the manifolds and see what that does. then an intake swap as was stated before.
 
the pipe from the manifolds is the largest that I can fit without goin under the draglink.
3" would be awesome but there is no chance it will fit :(
 
You can talk a/f ratio, intake and headers all day...and improvements in these areas will help, but the single most largest power robber in your combination is transmission related, IMO. What kind of converter are you running? Tha parasitic drag of a 727 is tremendous. I've seen almost a 70 HP difference in a 727 VS a 904 on the dyno at Mercer University in Macon, Georgia. I know a 904 would be a pretty costly swap, but there are things you can do to the 727 to help, the first thing being a a good quality converter that really transfers torque instead of wasting it.
 
StrokerScamp said:
You can talk a/f ratio, intake and headers all day...and improvements in these areas will help, but the single most largest power robber in your combination is transmission related, IMO. What kind of converter are you running? Tha parasitic drag of a 727 is tremendous. I've seen almost a 70 HP difference in a 727 VS a 904 on the dyno at Mercer University in Macon, Georgia. I know a 904 would be a pretty costly swap, but there are things you can do to the 727 to help, the first thing being a a good quality converter that really transfers torque instead of wasting it.
Click to expand...

Yup aluminum drum and bolt in sprag come to mind...
 
Headers and a 3 inch system.
What was the engines torque on the dyno????????
 
Somethin else to think about with this.......what kinda dyno is it? What standards are the results corrected to? Have you seen results for what you would consider a similar setup? How does your car FEEL to you? Does it feel slow? There are many kinds of dynos and many standards that results are corrected to. I have a lot of experience with the water brake dyno at Mercer university in Macon and we usually correct to SAE standards set prior to 1972, primarily because those are the engines that we are working with. If they are corrected to later standards, you need to remember the results will be roughly 100 less HP than the early standards. So it's possible you're not as bad off as you think. If the car feels fast to you and you are satisfied with it's performance......I wouldn't worry about it. It's real easy to get caught up in numbers.
 
timopar said:
A/F was just a touch lean 13to 1 if I remember rite, that was with 40deg total and it made 205rwhp.
I dropped it back to 36deg, it went rich and made 196 or somethin, then I rejetted and it to 12.4 12.6 A/F in the tail pipe,
it made 222. I just bought a team G singleplain cheap so ill put it on when it arives,
the car is a RHD 65 valiant so headers will have to be custom made.
the real problem is no room for headers unless I go strait under the steering draglink, witch will give me ground clearance issues.
Click to expand...


Team G are absolute junk IMO. You want a RPM intake or an older Holley Street Dominator for a stock head mild combo. Just my .02
 
thanks for the replys fellas,
the converter is a modified small block unit, it was built for 3k stall behind a 360.
It flashes to about 3600 but I dont no who built it. the tranz has iron drums and a stock sprag.
The car seems to go well, it'll spin the 275-60 ta's at any speed in 1st or 2nd.
It made 1000+lbs on the dyno but I figured thats cos of the 3.91 rear.
the dyno its self is a dynomotive and your guess is as good as mine as to what standards it calibrated to.
 
timopar said:
thanks for the replys fellas,
the converter is a modified small block unit, it was built for 3k stall behind a 360.
It flashes to about 3600 but I dont no who built it. the tranz has iron drums and a stock sprag.
The car seems to go well, it'll spin the 275-60 ta's at any speed in 1st or 2nd.
It made 1000+lbs on the dyno but I figured thats cos of the 3.91 rear.
the dyno its self is a dynomotive and your guess is as good as mine as to what standards it calibrated to.
Click to expand...

I bet the converter's the majority of your problem. I bet you a dollar it's never locking up.....as much as it should. A 440 produces much more torque than a 360. That's what a converter's all about. torque. The more torque, the higher the ultimate "lockup".
 
Something definitly doesn't seem right with those #s, what i can "never" understand is why people waiste there time & $$$$ on these dynos, to me, who gives a "rats ***" what it makes, as long as it runs the way you want it to lol, thats ALL i'm ever after, most guys i've seen jack with the tune on a dyno to get it just right (or so they think), then end up jacking with it at the track because there disapointed in the ETs, then what have they done, waisted there money thats all. Just another "yuppy" way of making $$$ in my book, i'm old school!!!

All i will ask you is this?

Are "YOU" happy with the way it runs ????
 
timopar said:
A/F was just a touch lean 13to 1 if I remember rite, that was with 40deg total and it made 205rwhp.
I dropped it back to 36deg, it went rich and made 196 or somethin, then I rejetted and it to 12.4 12.6 A/F in the tail pipe,
it made 222. I just bought a team G singleplain cheap so ill put it on when it arives,
the car is a RHD 65 valiant so headers will have to be custom made.
the real problem is no room for headers unless I go strait under the steering draglink, witch will give me ground clearance issues.
Click to expand...

G'Day Tim

I had the same problem with my AP-5 wagon with a 360.....I had a set of headers made cost $1200 but well worth it. As you said they have to go under the drag link which we thought was a proble but the exhaust guy configured it like OOOO instead of OO
OO which gave us the ground clearence we need took the wagon from mid 13's to high 12's so was well worth.

Cheers Gra
 
G'day Ozcuda, Cant wait for mopar sunday!! you goin??
I no I should have headers on it, but I just dont want to give up the ground clearance.
Iv only got 5" of ground clearance so losing 3" or 4" isn't an option.
Ill have to put a rack in it I think, I cant fit my hand between the block and the steering box so its got to go.
04012010002.jpg

Hi Joe, I didnt put it on the dyno for bragging rights, I was just sorting the A/F ratio.
The very poor numbers are the reson I posted it up and I havn't raced it yet (working 12hr days in a coal mine)
so I cant say if im happy with the performance.
Im out of the mine on the 16th so ill try to get her to the track for the friday night
test and tune on the 23rd.
 
timopar said:
G'day Ozcuda, Cant wait for mopar sunday!! you goin??
I no I should have headers on it, but I just dont want to give up the ground clearance.
Iv only got 5" of ground clearance so losing 3" or 4" isn't an option.
Ill have to put a rack in it I think, I cant fit my hand between the block and the steering box so its got to go.


Sorry to say but won't have time to venture up this year going to get the motor out for some more work soon to get it ready for the REGALS Rumble in Sydney in November if you haven't heard a bout basically it is Mopar Sunday in Sydney.

I would go talk to a good exhaust shop they should be able to help you out. How did you mount the motor ??? Did you use the original location or a mounting plate to the chassis ??? If you used a plate you could move the motor forward to give you more space at the firewall.....Just a thought

2010_04110031 (Small).JPG
Click to expand...
 
nice pic.
I cant move the engine forward it'll hit the steering box.
pitty you cant make it to mopar sunday, im exited to here about this regal rumble tho ill see if I can make it!
 
timopar said:
nice pic.
I cant move the engine forward it'll hit the steering box.
pitty you cant make it to mopar sunday, im exited to here about this regal rumble tho ill see if I can make it!
Click to expand...

I had issues with the steering box as well if I corner hard you hear the motor rattle against it.

There is always next year for Mopar Sunday & by then we should have the wagon well & truely sorted.

If you get down for the Mopar Rumble be sure to come say hi we'll have both the wagon there for fun & the Gold fish (Barracuda) for show.

Cheers Gra
 
My first thoughts are too much carb, too much cam, and the manifolds... I'd swap the cam for something like the small Summit cam. You say there's no room but tthey are center dump... Can you have a shop remove a section of the manifold and re-weld the flanges so you have som room to run a decent pipe? I would concentrate on the exh. I don't believe the convertor is a problem if you made a few tuning changes and the dyno showed the change. When a convertor is messing with the results it doesnt matter what the engine's doing, the dyno won't really show much of a change. I have a '65 A and I plan to run oval tubing as large as I can fit for the single pipe with 1/4" larger than the manifold outlets (small block going in).
 
1,000 ft lbs torque, and only 222 HP? Those numbers don't jive. sounds like a dyno or operator problem.
PS: scrap that boat anchor, and put a slant six/904 in it. My junk motor makes more Hp then that, with no fitment problems.
 
Thats what I thought when I first read this thread! I think you got an op who sucked.
 
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