225 charging problem

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shortmort37

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We took my '63 Valiant wagon to Carlisle from Philly, and had a great time! The car ran great, although we had to run the wipers a fair amount of the time coming home... At the first red light off of the Turnpike followed by 476, the car stalled - just blocks from home. The engine would not turn over; the battery was dead. My buddies in my '59 Sport Fury ran to my house, pulled the battery and brought it back in my daily driver. It started right up, and we made the last few blocks home. *Whew!* It was otherwise uneventful.

I pulled the alternator and took it to AutoZone, but the conclusion was that it was fine. The battery was four years old - so I replaced it, since I expect if it wasn't already bad, it soon might be. However...

The battery measures 12.7 volts with the ignition off. If I start it, it drops to 12.4 - it should go up a bit, correct? I'm concerned I haven't eliminated the problem.

What's my next step? Is there a way to test the (digital) VR? Should I run a separate wire from the alternator to the VR to rule out wiring? It looks like they rewired the engine compartment when they rebuilt the engine...

adTHANKSvance,
Dan
 
If the alternator tests OK and your battery goes dead and not showing any charging, then your regulator or it's wiring is bad. Test by bypassing the regulator to achieve full charging.
 
What he said. BUT....

There are 2 types of OEM Chrysler charging systems

One provides more positive voltage to the field and the other provides more ground.

You have to know which you are working with..

If the wiring has been messed with you might have any number of other types of charging systems.
 
Learn to test ON THE CAR, so you can also test the harness, etc.

Old systems (pre 70) have one field lead (green) to the alternator from the VR. It sends varying amounts of power to the field to control output.

In order to simply and quickly test the alternator AND the output charging circuit, simply disconnect the green field wire, either at the VR or the alternator, and jumper 12V to it from the battery. Slowly rev up the engine, watching the ammeter. It should start to charge, then more, and go to max. If you monitor the battery V, and you should, try not to let it go above 16V

For a quick idea of "if" the alternator is outputting enough current, with the engine reved some, turn on lights, heater, etc, push on brake. It should be able to keep up unless the battery is really dead. That is, the ammeter should remain on the "charge" side.

VR MUST be grounded. MUST
 
All good advice! I will try bypassing the regulator and report back with my findings. One observation I can make - the shop manual says that the BAT wire on the alternator (R-6, black, to the bulkhead connector) should be 12 gauge. I'm suspicious...

Stay tuned!
 
The charging system wiring has ALWAYS been undersize on these cars. Read the MAD article. There are other ways to do this.........

 
67Dart273 said:
The charging system wiring has ALWAYS been undersize on these cars. Read the MAD article. There are other ways to do this.........

Click to expand...

I read the MAD article ,what a bunch of BS. I've taken apart a police cruiser with the 65A alternator 1973? and the wiring was still in good shape after years of abuse.
The problems people have are mostly due to modifications they make. Headlight wiring is only adequate, so don't add hi-watt headlights without relays. Check the 3/8'' nuts on the back of the ammeter to make them snug, and spray the firewall plug with a lite oil when you do an oil change. Be careful with large output alternators on A-bodies. In 1971, the standard output alternator for 6 cylinder A-bodies was 26 amps!
 
pt70 said:
I read the MAD article ,what a bunch of BS. I've taken apart a police cruiser with the 65A alternator 1973? and the wiring was still in good shape after years of abuse.
The problems people have are mostly due to modifications they make. Headlight wiring is only adequate, so don't add hi-watt headlights without relays. Check the 3/8'' nuts on the back of the ammeter to make them snug, and spray the firewall plug with a lite oil when you do an oil change. Be careful with large output alternators on A-bodies. In 1971, the standard output alternator for 6 cylinder A-bodies was 26 amps!
Click to expand...
You don't know what you are talking about. There are many cases right here on this board, where the bulkhead connector, the ammeter eyelet terminals, and or the ammeter itself has failed or partially failed. In my "yuth" I had a 70 440-6 RR. The bulkhead connector failed on that. Since Al Gore had not invented the internet yet, I drilled out the bulkhead connector where the melted ammeter terminals had been and just snaked larger wire through there

You WANT PROOF? Look up the optional 65 a fleet/ police/ taxi wiring. This is a factory/ dealer modification which essentially bypasses the bulkhead connector. It's right there in the shop manuals. So "Ma" knew about the problem. AND, the larger rigs, the sea barges, went with external shunt ammeters before A bodies, and Ma finally changed the A body ammeter to external shunt in either 75 or 76
 
My own 67 was BONE STOCK and yet between the damage to the ammeter circuit and voltage drop in the ignition circuit, there was a ONE AND ONE HALF volt drop or more from the battery to the VR
 
67Dart273 said:
In order to simply and quickly test the alternator AND the output charging circuit, simply disconnect the green field wire, either at the VR or the alternator, and jumper 12V to it from the battery.
Click to expand...

Waydaminit. Jumper 12V to... where? What is "it" to which I'm jumpering 12V? To the end of the green wire I've disconnected? If I disconnect at the VR, I'm applying 12V to the alternator; and vice versa. These are very different actions - please clarify.

Thanks
Dan
 
shortmort37 said:
Waydaminit. Jumper 12V to... where? What is "it" to which I'm jumpering 12V? To the end of the green wire I've disconnected? If I disconnect at the VR, I'm applying 12V to the alternator; and vice versa. These are very different actions - please clarify.

Thanks
Dan
Click to expand...
Sorry. Disconnect the green field wire either from the alternator or the VR, and jumper 12V to the alternator field terminal if you disconnected the green at the alternator, or jumper 12V to the green field wire at the VR if you left the other end connected to the alternator.
 
If your still needing a hand at the end of the week, send me a PM. My home base is pretty close to you - jsut been on the road a lot.
 
Mattax said:
If your still needing a hand at the end of the week, send me a PM. My home base is pretty close to you - jsut been on the road a lot.
Click to expand...
Wow! That's a generous offer. The wife and I are headed out this weekend for a four day getaway, so I won't be taking a closer look until I get back - but I definitely will reach out if I get stuck. Thanks!
 
67Dart273 said:
Sorry. Disconnect the green field wire either from the alternator or the VR, and jumper 12V to the alternator field terminal if you disconnected the green at the alternator, or jumper 12V to the green field wire at the VR if you left the other end connected to the alternator.
Click to expand...
I disconnected the field wire at the regulator, and applied 12V to it (so I could test the wiring at the same time as testing the alternator). The ammeter, typically at dead center, pegged! The voltage at the battery approached 16V so I killed the engine. Put it back together, started up and same behavior as before - needle at dead center.

The battery is new. I take it, the regulator is the likely culprit?

Dan
 
shortmort37 said:
The ammeter, typically at dead center, pegged!
Click to expand...
This is danger zone and requires immediate shut down irregardles sof whether its pegging charge or discharge. That's 40 amps or more.
shortmort37 said:
The voltage at the battery approached 16V so I killed the engine.
Click to expand...
Therefore the alternator was working. Without regulation votlage will increase with RPM.

shortmort37 said:
the regulator is the likely culprit
Click to expand...
To decide if it is the regulator and nothing else.

A. Slowly charge the battery with a battery charger.
B. Start the engine and get it down to slow idle if possible. Observe the ammeter and since you have one, the voltage on your multimeter. (I assume thats the voltage at the battery you've been reading)
C. Bypass the voltage regulator and just the regulator. In other words you are going to full field it by connecting the blue ignition wire that feeds it to the green wire feeding the rotor. This assume a grounded field alternator and regulator.
1691353244637.png

Observe the ammeter and the voltage at battery.

You could also do this which is almost the same.
1691353423630.png

This simulates regulator with the upper points closed.

If the system was altered to an isolated field regulator and alternator, a different procedure has to be applied.
 
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Mattax said:
...Bypass the voltage regulator and just the regulator. In other words you are going to full field it by connecting the blue ignition wire that feeds it to the green wire feeding the rotor. This assume a grounded field alternator and regulator.
View attachment 1716124111
Observe the ammeter and the voltage at battery.
Click to expand...
Apart from disconnecting the blue wire from the (grounded) regulator, this is exactly what I did, and reported. I disconnected the green wire from the regulator, and jumpered the ignition to the green wire. Leaving the blue wire in place with the green wire disconnected from the regulator should be of no consequence. (And yes, the alternator is grounded as well.)
 
OK. Then it seems the VR is the problem or at least part of the problem. If it pegged because the alternator was turning fast (faster than typical slow idle of 550 to 650 rpm) and the battery was low, then maybe that's all there is to it.
 
Are these two part numbers equivalent for a VR for my '63 slant six 225 - #1V1067, and #VR706? Can someone recommend a supply house and a brand?
 
Rock auto


FYI VR101 and VR101T looks to be electro mechanical

1V1067 looks to be a fully electronic version. (Not to be confused with Mopar electronic VRs for 69? Up)

The one in my 67 is fully electronic and has been running for 20+ years.


I suspect that most any of the VRs will work but some were designed for higher output alternators (the field draws more current on higher output alternators) if your alternator is higher output then a HD VR would be called for.


Screenshot_20230806-213735.png
 
T is their cheaper line. Not that it means much. Used to be they had a premium line branded Blue Streak. Those days are gone.
If the car has points ignition, then an electromechanical is just fine. Has the advantage of being able to make small adjustments, sometimes repairable and has two fusible links that will blow if there is an overload or short.

I've been using FBO's solid state version (same package as the electromechanical) and its held up so far. Bought it through their ebay store so no spam.
 
Thanks. I’m searching for seller FBO on eBay and coming up empty. A different spelling perhaps, or might they have disappeared? If you have a P/N I’d be much obliged.
 
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