318 hard start when hot

[crackedback]

so negative battery jumper (from other vehicle) to negative battery on the dodge, and positive jumper to block? Seems sketchy, or I'm not understanding..

Or you mean jumping negative from my dodge battery to the block?

Sorry if I seem a little ignorant, I'm not much of a mechanic but am trying to learn and also this is one of very few pre 90s vehicles I've messed with. Mopar in general for sure though. Lot different than the chevy's I've worked on

Nowhere was another car mentioned. All good.

Just your battery neg to the engine block. Creates a larger ground path circuit. If it starts easier when hot, you know that the cables may be a part of the issue.

You can do the same on the positive side. I don't recall if there is a solenoid wire headed to the starter. If there is, double up the positive side from the battery to starter. Some of the trucks buss the positive side starter cables at the relay. I built a starter cable for a customers truck and it was a single cable, no aux stuff on it.

JMO, throwing parts at it without diagnosing where the issues lies is a poor approach.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Known by the fact that it is good voltage, will start my 454, and was bought less than december. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't "good" I couldn't start a chevy 454 on 12.3 volts

You might be surprised.

 

[RustyRatRod]

As I've obviously said I'm currently without a good amp tester, just a fluke 107. I can promise this is a solid and good battery. It starts engines much larger than a 318 on a much lower draw than it starts the 318 on at full capacity.

That's why I posted an affordable carbon pile tester. Glad your battery is good. Carry on.

 

[NJen42]

That's why I posted an affordable carbon pile tester. Glad your battery is good. Carry on.

I don't mean to be rude. I'll look further into it, and will do what I can afford. Thank you for the advice.

 

[toolmanmike]

"Battery is known good" - By WHAT method? If it's just you saying it's good, then no, it's not "known" at all. Has it passed a load test? I always do 3 in a row allowing about 3 minutes for the battery to recover between each test.

You can use a simple VOM to see amp draw. Most of those clamp type cost a bit for a VOM, so I would just get a small handheld carbon pile tester. You can do a lot more with one. Carbon pile to me is the best. It's simple, affordable and they last. I got this one when I worked at O'Reilly several years ago and I've abused it quite regularly.

LOAD TESTER

That is a toaster ribbon tester. Not a carbon pile tester. It is a single gauge tester and doesn't measure amps.

 

[volaredon]

On my 78 fury my 87 Dodge van and a couple of others ..I've had my hot battery cable turn to nasty green dust inside the insulation which looked fine.
And my experience with the toaster ribbon battery tester is that they don't compare to a carbon pile load tester. At all

 

[NJen42]

well I brought the battery up to the local auto shop and they told me my battery appears to be fine, good amps, I didn't go back to the back and confirm with them. I also learned that the alternator (or potentially the circuit powering it) appears to be doing nothing. they didn't seem to be able to help me with the starter. I bought a mini starter and will be attempting to change that out as soon as there's a day above 10f here, hopefully in a week or two. any leads as to how the alternator circuit works? or just assume it's the alt itself and switch that as well. I really am like, super broke, so any free resources I can get at this point are super helpful, I can't afford a 100 dollar book that may or may not tell me how to fix things goes.

 

[Bewy]

The first thing to do is install the new starter. A fully charged battery is 12.6-7v, slightly less in very cold weather. Start the engine & check with a voltmeter on the battery to see if it is charging. If charging, meter will read up to 14 ish volts. If nothing above 12.6, system is not charging, could be alt, reg or wiring.
As for lack of dollars, say a prayer to Allah for an inheritance......

 

[NJen42]

After a little further diagnosis, the alternator does not charge (probing the terminals at the battery it is 12.6) until the truck breaks the "C" on the temp meter. As soon as it's above cold, it jumps up to a touch over 14v, 14.2-14.4ish. Tested voltage at the coil too, with it running, it's putting out about 3v. Did not have another person to help me test while cranking. Another issue I've noticed is the truck once it hits the middle of the temp gauge, does not want to idle. Still waiting to do the starter as it's been so cold I can barely hold a tool for 3-4 minutes without it literally freezing to my hands.

 

[NJen42]

Tried today to take the starter off. Bottom nut came off easy, top bolt is hard to access, and impossible to remove. Tried heat, pb blaster, impact sockets, every tool available, looks like I'll be taking it to a shop. That dude is STUCK. Even living in the rust belt, I have never had a bolt that hard to deal with. It's in such a stupid spot, only way to even get a socket on it is with a swivel and about 2.5 feet of extensions... Have had wheel bearing hub assemblies be easier to remove than this thing.

 

[NJen42]

The shop can't get the starter off either... Is there a chance (I know dodge was known for a lot of this but not sure if that'd include a starter) that the top bolt might be reverse thread? I told the shop don't worry about it and I'll figure it out rather than them ruin things.

 

[volaredon]

No. No chance. I use a 5/8 box wrench, sometimes I need a short one to get in there. You sure you're on the starter bolt? There's a transmission bolt right above the starter that's the same size socket.
On my 360 Durango I went with my long extension from the front, strung the extension above the motor mount. And ratchet in front of the cross member. I have several long extensions I mostly use for the bell housing bolts when changing a trans. I think the longest one I have is like 36-38" long. I have a couple of them around 22-24" ones too.

 

[NJen42]

No. No chance. I use a 5/8 box wrench, sometimes I need a short one to get in there. You sure you're on the starter bolt? There's a transmission bolt right above the starter that's the same size socket.
On my 360 Durango I went with my long extension from the front, strung the extension above the motor mount. And ratchet in front of the cross member. I have several long extensions I mostly use for the bell housing bolts when changing a trans. I think the longest one I have is like 36-38" long. I have a couple of them around 22-24" ones too.

The only way I can get a socket on it at all is from in the engine bay and I'm 99% sure it's on the starter itself. The starter is pressed so close to the frame rail that I can't actually *see* what I'm getting at, but I put my socket and set of extensions on, and then get under the truck, and it feels like it's on the starter bolt. I have to use about 2.5 feet of extensions plus my 5/8 socket to be able to get at it from any angle.

I can get my fingers on it from the bottom, but I can't physically see it from the bottom or the top either one.

I assume I'm able to post pictures in here, I can post a photo or two tomorrow after work.


Like I said in a previous post though, I've hit it with PB blaster, got a propane torch up in there, and hit it with a snap on 1/2 inch impact gun and no movement whatsoever, let alone whatever the shop tried on it.



Not trying to bug or bother anyone, but I really would like to get the issues with this truck solved, and if my local shop can't do it, and it doesn't like to run hot, I'm left at the point of let it sit and rot. My daily driver is a a chevy s10 so I can't really just haul it anywhere or anything. Really appreciate any advice that I can get.

 

[volaredon]

I've never had a problem getting a wrench on the starter bolts on a full size Dodge truck. 87-96 Dakota's not so bad , I only have had problems getting to that bolt on 318/360 Durango's for some reason. Fortunately I haven't had to do so as much on those as the older ones.
I had an 89 diplomat that I had to replace the trans on, and I got the bolts out of the starter fine but that thing had the starter "grow" to the trans. I had to way-lay on that one with a sledge to break it free. I ended up having to replace the starter because of that one that trans job
I put the old starter back in but it didn't work after having to be pummeled on to get out.

 

[NJen42]

I've never had a problem getting a wrench on the starter bolts on a full size Dodge truck. 87-96 Dakota's not so bad , I only have had problems getting to that bolt on 318/360 Durango's for some reason. Fortunately I haven't had to do so as much on those as the older ones.
I had an 89 diplomat that I had to replace the trans on, and I got the bolts out of the starter fine but that thing had the starter "grow" to the trans. I had to way-lay on that one with a sledge to break it free. I ended up having to replace the starter because of that one that trans job
I put the old starter back in but it didn't work after having to be pummeled on to get out.

I started with watching a few videos where a guy used a 5/8 and a 6 inch extension, wasn't physically possible. kept running into the manifold, just wasn't enough room in there. I can get on there with a bunch of extensions and I have to use a swivel to get my ratchet on it, but wasn't able to turn it, ended up sticking the impact on it and still nothing. So I put the torch on it and then went back to ratchet and no luck, so I used the impact, and still it won't move at all. Again I have no idea what the shop tried, but they told me they couldn't get it to move either, and suggested cutting it off and I said absolutely not. I'm at a total loss right now as to how to remove this thing. Like I said I can try and finagle my camera down there and get a pic tomorrow, not sure if that'll be any help or not, but I'm just stuck at this point.

I do live in northern michigan, pretty high in the rust belt, but the bottom nut came off like I was turning it with my fingers, absolutely no issue at all.

Maybe if I bash on it with a sledge that might losen up the bolt lol, idk, I am intending on replacing the starter anyway. I kind of doubt that will help, but I suppose it might be worth a try? Although I figured with heat and pb that thing would have broke right lose no problem.....