318 - Lifter Removal & Anti Pump-Up Lifters

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daginsu

daginsu

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It's been a while since I've been on here, but I have been busy on my '76 Scamp since last year. And boy has it been a bear. It started off with a simple cam swap (w/ new lifters and springs), 4bbl intake and carb, headers, and shift kit.

Still haven't done the headers and shift kit yet because I have a ticking noise in the valve train. After replacing the stock rocker arms with the adjustable versions and getting new correct-length pushrods and adjusting the lifter pre-load to where it needs to be, we are still getting the valvetrain noise (only on the driver's side mind you) and the car is missing.

Which leads my Brother and I to the conclusion that I must have at least one bad lifter. I have read that for a 318, you do not need to remove the manifold in order to remove the lifters, and that all is required is to remove the rocker shaft assembly and the pushrods and then use a lifter removal tool to get the lifters out. I have been looking around for said tool, and all I can find is this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WMR-W84004/. Will this work for my application?

Also, assuming I go with new Anti-Pump Up lifters does anyone have any suggestions on which ones to go with? The only set I can find on Summit are the Crane Cams 99278-16 for $101.60, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99278-16/. I'd like to spend less money if possible, but will go with these if they are my only option.

FYI, the cam I have in there right now is the Lunati 60401 cam with the matching lifters and the suggested 73949K1 springs.

Thanks for your time,
Kenny
 
First thing is if it's missing and you know it's not ignition or carb related, spend the few dollars on an intake gasket set and pull the intake. Missing and noise is not good.
Second thing - Lunatis are not known for makign a lot of noise. It is possible that in the running with the other parts the lifter(s) may not have worn in properly. Did you perform the cam break in procedure?
Third thing - some blocks have worn lifter bores and they will be noisey regardless. This is especially true on the rear of left hand bank because the oil has to pass the whole right side, and then the left side before it reaches there. That's a lot of chances for pressure to bleed off. What is the oil pressure like at idle? at cruise?
 
I have never tried it, but if there is enough room (you need more than 0.904") you could fish them out with a long magnet......but I would just pull the intake so you can get a better look/inspection. A GOOD intake gasket will only set you back ~20 bucks, the cheap-o's are even less.
 
i would agree, spend the money and take the intake off. if it is making noise you are going to want to get in there and take a look any way and make sure all is good. fishing out lifters can be a pain. for the money you would spend on a tool you can buy an intake gasket set, my $0.02
 
It looks like the concensus is to take off the manifold, so maybe that's my best bet. I just remember it being a PITA because of all the other stuff I had to remove...and it's an AC car. But in the long run I guess it's probably the safest bet.

Any suggestions about new lifters if I need a set? Specifically anti-pump up lifters?

moper: 1) pretty sure it's not ignition or carb-related 2) we did break the cam in as suggested 3) I'm not entirely sure I have an oil gauge, the best I remember it's just the dummy light, but it has not come on during operation of the engine...I'll verfiy when I get home.
 
I've only used the Rhoads lifters and for many years and times over. These lifters tick and loudly. They will do all they advertise. Check the lifters as they come out and see if 1 or more have any play in it at anytime.
 
Everything I've seen about the Rhoads lifters are that they work better with large cams. I would consider my cam to be on the small side (Advertised Duration 256/262, Lift .454/.475), so would these lifters be worth extra cost and would I see a performance gain?
 
I am gonna be the spoiler here, but my guess is with the miss you have you wiped out a lobe or 2 on that cam, that said I had rhoads lifters in my previous engine which only had a .475 lift cam in it and they worked fine. Good luck with your mission you will definatly need to pulll that manifold off to see what's going on in there. IMO.
 
But the rhoads lifter's are supposed to be noisy,like a solid cam...just sayin..
 
Two things. First, the V Max lifters are adjustable for use with any size camshaft. Secondly, they do NOT make noise at all. They are as quiet as a regular hydraulic lifter.
 
I would first check that the pre-load on the suspect lifters is correct. It is easiest when you can see the lifter, but you should be able to check a few by backing off the adjuster and counting turns so you can put it back where it was. Insure the cam is on the base circle during this.

I would then pull the lifter(s) out the top, since fairly easy. Then you can check the "might have wiped a lifter" concern, which is unlikely with your mild cam, unless you put in monster springs or didn't use assembly lube. I don't know that you need to even remove the rocker assembly. Since you have adjustable rockers (like me), just back it off to remove the pushrod. There is a special tool to snare the lifters, and I recall seeing it in the Help line at auto parts stores (long ago?). However, the magnet on a stick should work. Sears has a big one with built-in LED light on the end that should work. You could also bend stiff wire to hook the lifter spring clip. Since new, they should slide right out. I doubt your lifter bore is worn, since you should have noticed that when you installed them. I don't know what else you might see by pulling the intake and that is 10x more effort, plus may dump water in your engine.

I have Rhoads lifters in my 273, with a fairly mild 0.422/0.444 "RV" hydraulic cam. I think I hear a slight ticking with my ear very close, but that would be good since my car is supposed to have solid lifters. They are marketed for monster cams, since almost necessary to get a driveable idle and vacuum. However, they should improve idle quality and mileage with any cam. I expect the idea never went factory since the typical owner would let their oil get gunky where they clog up, but FABO guys are more meticulous. I doubt you need the Vmax with your cam. I got several sets off ebay, from $25 to $40 as I recall, but not selling since I may try in my other engines.
 
needsaresto said:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Rhoads-Lifters/Rhoads-Hydraulic-V-Max-Lifters/813784/10002/-1


Roller lifter.$$$
Click to expand...

No. Wrong yet again. I was not talking about the V Max rollers. I am talking about the V Max flat tappets. Since the discussion was about flat tappets, why in the world would I bring up a roller? The V Max flat tappet hydraulic lifters adjust from the bottom. They are supposed to be about the best hydraulic lifter you can buy. As for the $$$$, do you expect to get a set for free?
 
"I would then pull the lifter(s) out the top, since fairly easy. Then you can check the "might have wiped a lifter" concern,"

Just a question, I dont want to start a controversy, but how can you check for a wiped cam lobe if you dont take off the manifold??
 
use the long magnet to remove the lifters if there is a lobe problem the lifter will not come out of the lifter bore as easy as one that is not damaged
when you get the lifter out the bottom of it will tell you if there is a problem
 
My lifters tried to come out when I pulled the pushrods, you may not even need the magnet if they're gooked on enough, but aside from five wires and four hoses, and two hours of your time, the intake's not that hard to pull and it will let you look more clearly at the cam instead of guesstimating from liftertooshies.
 
You wipe a lifter and the preload is gonna be gone right? So if you start shaking closed valve rocker arms you should find one or two pretty loose if you wiped 2 lobes, right?I say try and grab them out the heads. A/C cars..I feel for you guys, thats alot of crap to take off if you can snake them through the head with a Cal Van lifter tool http://pivco.net/index.php?main_pag...=2231&cPath=116&m1track=googlebase#googlebase or Alltrade for 6 bucks...http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=cMBiT_3zE4WtiQL8ifXLCA&ved=0CFMQ8wIwAA

You can take your lifters apart with a circlip plier or needle nose, depending on what retainer they have. If they are good lifters that have already broken in properly (just started to tick?) but are soft by pushing them in with a pushrod on a bench after you squirt oil in them, there may be some crud in there that can be cleaned out.
 
I've done cam swaps with leaving the intake on, works out great. Yeah you only save $20--well if you use Fel pro print o seal you really do not need to replace the intake gasket but still it takes time. I tack the gaskets to each head and leave the intake side dry, you can swap or remove and replace the intake many times without touching the intake gaskets

But yeah, are you certain the cam is ok ?
 
Wow, I thought this thread had died last week, thanks for everyone's input!

Not only did I get some different opinions on what I should do, but I also got some good ideas (and links) on tools to help me remove the lifters if I decide to leave the intake on.

Where I'm at right now...I really don't want to take the manifold off, but then again I don't want to buy a set of lifters if I actually end up needing a new cam instead. I'm still waiting to hear back from my brother because he is pretty adamant about leaving the manifold on...and he's helping me with all of this.

Basically, if the cam is toast, I'm going to mothball the Scamp until I can drop a 360-based stroker in it :D
 
So, in case anyone had been holding their breath on this (I doubt it)...here's what happened.

I bought a lifter tool off Amazon and when I tried to pull the lifters out the 3rd or 4th one back on the driver's side would not come out. So I pulled the manifold and you can see what I found in the attached pic. Word to the wise: make sure the engine is ready to start before you try and break in the cam.

I've decided to go with one of the Summit cam & lifter kits. I've also picked up a magnetic drain plug and some strong magnets to put on the oil pan :(
 

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