354 or 392? Hemi? Questions?

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70dusterpink

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Ok so I realize it does fit and all and I know it weighs 750lbs but my car is only gonna be a fun street car not a race car.... I think it would be neat stock ratings are 280hp 380 torque. Not to shabby. Anyway here it goes... Do they make motor mounts for the swap, an headers? And a oil pan? If they do I might go this way I know it isn't a 426 but still a hemi would e a wow factor and still move a little Abody pretty good!!! If you have any info please let me know!!! Thanks alot!! I seen it done just not sure how... I can prolly weld up mounts but headers idk.... And oil pan idk... Please any help would be greatly appreciated
 
as far as i know early model hemi parts are like few and far to come by
 
you have to convert to a rack and pinion. small block 360 distributor works. There is a how to if you Google it.
 
You have to convert it to rack and pinion? There are parts out there I can get a running 354 for cheap with tranny.... What tranny bolts up to them that would fit in a A body?? Also there is no way not to convert to a rack and pinion how much does that cost? Thanks for the info so far... What did you type in to find that how to?? Turbofreak
 
The only way I know is to use the RMS front end kit and the street/handling kit is like 4500 dollars
 
You don't NEED anybody's kit. Those just make things easier. Lots of early hemis got dropped into A-bodies years before there were "kits" and R&P.

With that said, this is not a swap for a novice WITHOUT help.
 
Well I can weld... I saw headers that hug the block... I can make mounts.. Jus have to see if will actually fit any idea like what I'll need to make. Mounts easy... Do I have to relocate the master cylinder? And do they make a kit for that? And oil pan I'm guessing that gonna be a hard job...
 
According to my info, a stock Chrysler 392 single 4 barrel was rated at 345HP @ 4600 torque 450 @ 2800 with a compression ratio of 10 to 1. Bore 4 in stroke 3.90 in. The middle size early Hemi (354) was rated less and the 331 less yet. Parts are readily available through Hot Heads. There were also Dodge early Hemis - 241, 270, 315 and 325 as well as DeSoto versions - 291, 345. If I had a 67-76 A Body with no engine, I'd definitely have to use my rebuilt 392 in it.
 
Speed parts are readily available for the 354/392 Chrysler's, not hard to find at all. Hot Heads pretty much carries everything you need, as well as Egge and a few others.

http://www.hothemiheads.com/

http://egge.com/

But, there is NOTHING cheap about a 354/392. They are the most popular early hemi's, and will set you back a pretty penny. A running, un-rebuilt, stock 354 will probably set you back at least $2,500, and a 392 will be even more than that. The 331's, which basically are the same block (same dimensions, different wall thickness), are a little cheaper to come by, but the '51-'53's had a long bellhousing cast into the block, so they wouldn't be a good choice. '54 and '55 331's have identical external dimensions as the 354/392 blocks, and are still a little less expensive.

A small block 360 distributor will not work without an adapter, the distributor is the right size but the shaft is not quite the right length. Its an easy fix and the parts are made (hot heads carries it), but its not a bolt in without an adapter.

A small block bellhousing is the same size as the hemi bell, but the bolts are on a different pattern. Adapters are made to bolt a small block bell to a 354/392, so you can run later transmissions (727, A833, etc).

The block is pretty much the same size as the A and LA small blocks so engine mounts should be fairly straightforward, but the heads are huge, and will no doubt cause clearance issues. Probably why a rack is needed, I don't see the stock steering clearing the heads.
 
I can get a 354 for 600 bucks.... And tranny... Soo should I do it?!? Headers 375... Make mounts prolly 50 bucks... Oil pan still thinking about that... And the steering I will have to measure and check... Do they make a relocation fr master cylinder?
 
70dusterpink said:
I can get a 354 for 600 bucks.... And tranny... Soo should I do it?!? Headers 375... Make mounts prolly 50 bucks... Oil pan still thinking about that... And the steering I will have to measure and check... Do they make a relocation fr master cylinder?
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Transmission - If the tranny is an old style, it will be cast iron and have the parking brake at the back of the transmission. I would not use it - get the adapter to run a later small block 727.

Oil Pan - Stock center sump Hemi oil pan is what you need..

Headers - You might have to pick up the header flanges and fabricate you own.

Master Cylinder relocation adapter - available from several sources
 
Its not that big of as deal, not a one day job but still not that bad. For $600.00 you could resell easily if you change your mind. Check with Zigs here, he has one in his Dart. Small block motor mounts bolt to the block but the block is about 1" wider. You could adapt to match your K frame, I adapted a set of big block mounts for mine. PAW and Hot Heads has a good assortment of headers. 727 will bolt up with an adapter, I got mine from Tom Waters (very nice piece). As Dartman said, original transmission not worth using. I have a 360 dist. in mine, just had to cut the shaft to the cam and oil pump and renotch it. Good luck
 
I say do it!!...That's a deal for that Hemi @ $600!!..I wish I knew the guy,but I have seen a Duster with a Blown 354 Hemi...just 2 towns over ( in Pepperell Ma)...I might stop by his house this weekend...just to meet him & find out about the car..I'll let you know what I find out...
 
I'm going for it guys!!! I go pick up the hemi this weekend!! I am going to have to make sure it is what he is telling me it is!! So I found a website with the casting numbers. Is it still worth it if it's a 331?!? Also how much power can these things make? Say cam,intake,headers? I'm hoping at least 300hp 400 torque
 
I say give it a shot. Remember, those early Hemis are more of a Hemi than the 426s were. The heads on them are TRUE hemispherical heads. The 426s were really not quite there.....they just got the cool name and all the marketing gimmicks. Is the 331 worth it too?? You bet! Seems I remember that they also use the same timing set as the small block, too. Somebody feel free to slam me against the wall if I remembered that wrong. Usually when people say stuff like "don't do it" "it's not cost effective" and "nobody makes parts for that" that just lights my fire that much more. As Mr Lusk pointed out, people were doin this swap in A bodies long before any kits or fancy rack and pinions were available. It ain't gonna be easy and it's gonna be time consumin. But if you stick it out, in the end, you'll have sumthin unique and sumthin that YOU built. Go for it dude.
 
early hemi's in cars came with a center sump that wont clear the steering, I think industrial motors had a rear sump that does clear the centerlink. or vice versa - i cant remember off the top of my head


TRWaters makes an adapter kit that bolts to any small block mopar tranny - I have a 331 bolted to a 518 overdrive

the mount bosses bolt up to a small block mopar, I have the spool mounts and they have to e opened up a bit but it's not anything that cant be done in a garage.
 
Hey guys thanks. I'm hoping to slap a cam in it and a set of headers and when money provides a intake. I'll take pictures along the way to keep you guys updated!!' hoping for 300-350hp 400 torque it all depends on what hemi this guy has... He said a old 50s hemi... I assumed 392 he said ya I think so.. Gonna have to go take a look
 
$600?!

That's a great deal for a 354. I have two 331's, both long bell though. I paid less than that, but $600 for a complete 354 is a great deal, especially if its running. Heck, even if it needs a rebuild that's a great deal.

A complete 331 short bell ('54-'55) would be worth that as well, although it wouldn't be as great of a deal. Some of the later 331 truck blocks had a "W" cast on the side of the block, even though they may be finished at a 331 bore they're actually 354 blocks and can be bored as such. :-D My only caution would be that I don't know if a long bell 331 ('51-'53) would fit in this application because of the shape of the extended bell on the back of the block. The long bell 331's aren't as popular because they're hard to adapt an auto transmission to. Super easy to adapt a 4 speed to though, you basically just need a flat plate and a hydraulic clutch. But you have to have the space, and it will already be a tight fit.

Here's a link to a hemi casting number ID site. There are a few, but this one is pretty good

http://hotrodsandhemis.com/hemi1.html

Even a 331 can make over 400 hp, but I don't know if you'll get there without a rebuild. The problem with most of the early hemi's, up until 354's and 392's, is that most of them have a compression ratio around 7.5:1. They respond well to mods, but its hard to get the power way up without boosting the compression. In '51 the 331's were only rated at 180 hp. But, the '55 300C 331 (factory dual quad!) was rated at 300 hp with a 8.5:1 compression ratio. I know you aren't thinking rebuild, but a 10:1 compression ratio 331 with a cam and headers will make 400+ hp.

I believe the small block timing set will work for a 354. The earlier 331's had a "long snout" cam and used a different set up, but I think '54 on works. There's a few parts that work with small adapters, all the early hemi's (Dodge, Chrysler and Desoto) can use the LA distributor with shaft length mods. In fact, for a Dodge 241/270 the LA distributor drops right in. And the transmission set up on all of them except the long bell 331's is the same except for the bolt pattern. 440 connecting rods can even be made to work with a little machining (the rod is a little too wide at the big end). I wouldn't worry about the oil pan too much. 331's and 354's use the same pan as a 392, so there's plenty of aftermarket options.

Just for fun, this is a 400 hp 331 hemi...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxAW3oV8tw8"]YouTube - DeadEndCruisers: Jimmy White's Hemi Coupe[/ame]
 
You want a non extended bell block. That would be 1954 and newer. A 331 if is a true hemi not a desoto has tons of available parts including aluminum heads. They came with a factory forged crank and is capable of handling 1000+HP with good rods and pistons. I was going to go That route with a large turbo, but added up the cost and decided hell no. I had a hard time finding a decent core for a decent price. All I found was dreamers wanting more then 3-4000 for a motor that sat for 20+yrs in there shed.

They use SBM timing sets, you can get a SBM dizzy to fit modified or buy it pre modified from msd or the likes. Thy even make solid roller cams for them if you want to get crazy. Pistons are not real expensive cuz the bore is common sized. the 392 is taller and wider then the 354-331 stuff. Like said before a 331 can be a 354 with a 331 casting from the factory. I don't know why they did that, but is bet it was insurance or class racing that was the reasoning. I sill look for a deal on one just in case I desire together crazy for one. However a 426+ hemi is about as cost effective as an old schooler if your planning a major power build.
 
Ok well looks like my dream of having a good deal on this 354 hemi is gone.... He doesn't know much about it except it came in a old hot rod his father had... He said it says desoto!!! On the valve covers!!! Is it still worth it? Or no? I'm upset now because I was ready to have a 354 hemi in my duster. Now he says it's a desoto. Are they the same thing as far as swapping em? Power wise? Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be a big desoto
 
I'm not an expert. Is get the block number and call hot head hemis or what ever their name is that specializes in the old stuff.
 
70dusterpink said:
Ok well looks like my dream of having a good deal on this 354 hemi is gone.... He doesn't know much about it except it came in a old hot rod his father had... He said it says desoto!!! On the valve covers!!! Is it still worth it? Or no? I'm upset now because I was ready to have a 354 hemi in my duster. Now he says it's a desoto. Are they the same thing as far as swapping em? Power wise? Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be a big desoto
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In my opinion, it'd still be worth it. But I like old hemi's! :-D I also have a 291 Desoto. Get the ID number off of it, it should be located on the front of the block between the water pump and the valley cover.

Desoto's came in 5 variations- 276, 291, 330, and 341/345. The earlier 276/291 block is a "low deck", the 330/341/345 is a "high deck". Same block with different deck heights.

Parts are a little harder to come by, but they are true hemi's just like their Chrysler counterparts. The same sources will work for parts, and aftermarket intakes are now available for both low and high deck versions. Hot Heads has everything you need. On the plus side, either variation is smaller than a 331/354/392, even the tall decks, so they'd probably fit better. The 330/341's can easily make over 300 hp, some of the 4v versions did from the factory. Transmission pattern is the same as the Chrysler's. Engine mounts are the same as the 331/354/392, except over 1" narrower. I measured my 291 mounts just for fun, they measure 16 1/2" apart at the top holes. Same dimension I pulled off my '71 318, and the mounts appear the same. So, the mounts might even be easier on the Desoto. :-D Just for info, my 331 measured in at about 17 3/4". All those are just with a tape measure though, and the 291 still has a front cover so they may not be perfect.

You can find the specs on the Desoto's here

http://www.thehemi.com/engines.php

Casting numbers for the Desoto's look like this, the "S" number starts the ID, the first two digits tell you what it is.

DeSoto Hemi_________________________________________
S17 .......1952.......276.......Firedome....... 2-bbl
S16 .......1953.......276.......Firedome....... 2-bbl


S19....... 1954.......276 ......Firedome....... 2-bbl
S21....... 1955.......291.......Fireflite....... 4-bbl
S22....... 1955.......291.......Firedome....... 2-bbl
S23....... 1956.......330.......Firedome....... 2-bbl
S24....... 1956.......330.......Fireflite....... 4-bbl
S24A......1956.......341.......Adventurer....... dual 4-bbl
S25....... 1957.......341.......Firedome....... 2-bbl
S26....... 1957.......341.......Fireflite....... 4-bbl
S26A.......1957.......345......Adventurer....... dual 4-bbl
S27....... 1957....... 325......Dodge Engine....... 4-bbl


Heck, I have the engine out of my EL5 Dart, maybe I should pull the 291 off the stand and see if it'll bolt up, just for fun! :-D
 
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