Marcohotrod
Well-Known Member
"exhaust at 2.14" and intake at 1.81" and U are a senior mechanical engineering student? now I know why U did not answer any of my questions, too complicated fer ya
440 problems/quenching?/advice needed
- Thread starter dkbug
- Start date
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dkbug
Well-Known Member
2 things....
1. I listed them backwards because I type on my phone and cant always proof read everything. I know the difference.
2. If you have nothing nice to say, keep your garbage comments off of my posts. Im sure the mods would agree.
Oh and I answered every one of your questions except for the lash question simply because I haven't broke into this motor yet. Don't question my intellegence if you do not know me personally. Instead, you should be willing to help instead of being a keyboard warrior.
Marcohotrod
Well-Known Member
previous questions not answered - 1. how thick / part number head gaskets 2. what rear gear / tire size planned 3. closed chamber size ? stock is ~ 78 cc. Removing a valve cover to check lash is not much to do where I am. I was trying to help, I am road warrior as well as a mechanical engineer, I take notes and my 360 a body runs 11.6 @ 117 and street driven for 25 years, 11.5 : 1 , 306*/306* .555" / .555" solid cam, 93 octane, 4.56 gears, iron heads with quench ported by me, combination and engine and trans and rear assembled by me
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Stock type head gaskets from victor reinz, 3.73 clutch type suregrip, 28" tire, closed chamber head has a stock deck so ~78cc. Happy?
I work 40+ a week while going to school full time. Im on break with tons of family and holiday stuff going on. Sue me for not wanting to part with that to work on my car. I am simply planning for the near future.
Not knowing what someone else built can not dictate MY knowlege or capability. The ONLY thing I have done to this motor is throw a different set of heads on it, before I knew any better ~3 years ago.
With that said, I do not always catch what was said since I only use this forum on my phone. I overlook things often when using my phone.
I take notes as well as determine and execute a plan based on what makes sense and what most people agree on. I can tell you anything about my previous motors as well as what they ran.
No hard feelings but you should probably give people the benefit of the doubt before criticizing them.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
I'll also say that i never doubted your knowledge or capability of your projects. Sounds like a good set up
Doosterfy
Well-Known Member
If for whatever reason you do wind up with a detonation problem you don't need race gas. Use a premium brand octane booster like Klotz , Torco or one of the other premium brands. Don't waste your money on parts store crap like Turbo 108 or other brands they have in Pep Boys or where ever. The of the shelf products are very weak and only raise the octane by points of a number as in .1 unless you use a very high concentration which is expensive. The premium brands are much more potent, better and easily raise octane by whole numbers. I use Klotz KL 628. I buy it off Amazon for $55 a gallon and mix it one ounce to a gallon. That's only 43 cents added to the cost of a gallon of fuel, much less expensive than race fuel including 100 octane unleaded some gas stations sell. My engine has over 11 to 1 and 210 psi cranking pressure. The Klotz works perfectly. Also you mentioned talking to Hughes Engines. I've never dealt with them but I will say that I've learned to be very careful about getting advice from parts vendors. Remember they're in business to sell parts so they will often tell you that what you have is no good and of course they have the parts to make it right. I'm not bad mouthing Hughes just stating the obvious. Good luck whatever you do and keep us posted on how things work out.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the positive support!! I wouldn't have guessed that the parts stores octane boosters weren't any good.
With your comment about the vendors, you are ABSOLUTELY right. Some people will say anything they can to get your money. Unfortunately some people in our position have more money than sense.
So over the weekend I managed to get my hands on some goodies.
Got a set of 906 heads that have had a little work done to them. Bigger valves, new springs.. ect... I will refreshen them up a bit and get the prepped to install.
Now, everyone on here has mentioned that the cam that I have is by no means a big cam. In fact, it is a decent cam for my build. I have located a set of used adjustable rockers that I managed to pick up for $150 shipped to my front door. Upon inspection, they seem to be in great shape for the price. No pitting on the mating surfaces. I will gladly install these.
Now, I have been informed that while running non-adjustable rockers for the amount of time that I did, there is a chance that I smoked my cam. In the next couple of days I will tear it apart and inspect. If all is well, I will continue to run what I have with the adjustable rockers.
Now, I need advice on gaskets. Which head gasket company do you guys perfer for a thicker than stock gasket?
Marcohotrod
Well-Known Member
fel-pro, 8519PT-1 - about double the thickness of stock. If your lucky and the valve lash is very close to .030" the cam and lifters should be fine
You do what millions of other gear heads do. So?
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Ok guys. The anticipation has been real. How this motor did not blow up, I really do not know.
Push rods are roughly 9.3" in length.
Cam and lifters are fine. Im still swapping them out though. I want a 3 bolt cam as apposed to the one bolt I have. Not to mention the hydraulic vs. solid cam pros and cons.
Nothing seems to be damaged.
The only thing I believed to have saved the cam is the fact that it has hydraulic lifters on a solid cam. Big no no. I am simply ignoring the fact that is has non-oiling pushrods on hydraulic lifters....
The pistons are #L2266 .30 over flat tops.
So as of now, my plan is to buy a cam kit that comes with lifters and the 3 bolt cam gear kit.
What lift is same to run with factory style non-adjustable rockers? Brand? I am wanting to go with a hydraulic cam.
Push rods are roughly 9.3" in length.
Cam and lifters are fine. Im still swapping them out though. I want a 3 bolt cam as apposed to the one bolt I have. Not to mention the hydraulic vs. solid cam pros and cons.
Nothing seems to be damaged.
The only thing I believed to have saved the cam is the fact that it has hydraulic lifters on a solid cam. Big no no. I am simply ignoring the fact that is has non-oiling pushrods on hydraulic lifters....
The pistons are #L2266 .30 over flat tops.
So as of now, my plan is to buy a cam kit that comes with lifters and the 3 bolt cam gear kit.
What lift is same to run with factory style non-adjustable rockers? Brand? I am wanting to go with a hydraulic cam.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Pictures
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Now, by the looks of the ridge line on the cylinders, its hard to determine if its zero deck. If i spent another 10 seconds on the motor today, my girlfriend would have hanged me by the roof.
Doosterfy
Well-Known Member
Seeing how you're going with 906 heads you might want to think twice about going to thicker head gaskets. With the open chambers you will already have lowered the compression plenty, there's just no reason to go further. I would use Felpro 1009 gaskets. They match the 440 bores better than the common off the shelf Felpro (I forget the part number) gaskets. The common parts store ones have a much larger bore for some reason. If I remember right the compressed thickness of the 1009s is .038". If you do opt for 1009s make sure you specify that number when you buy or order them, otherwise most parts vendors will sell you the more common ones with the big bores. Also, Happy New Year!
Doosterfy
Well-Known Member
I really need to get in the habit of reading entire threads before I post. Big block Chryslers do not oil the rockers through the pushrods. The oil gets there through oil passages in the block that passes into the heads and goes up through one of the rocker shaft pedestals then into the rocker shafts. If you look at the decks on the block you can see the passages in between the 3rd and forth cyl head bolt holes on each deck.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Ok great. I must ask instead of assume, how do the lifters get lubrication? From the oil flowing back to the pan?
What is the easiest way to tell if the pushrods I have will work with what I have planned? Obviously with the deck being milled for zero deck, I will need to compensate somewhere for that distance. I am sticking with my factory style non adjustable rockers.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
With stock stroke and stock rods with L2266 pistons zero deck, what would my compression be sitting at with factory 906 cc?
Doosterfy
Well-Known Member
I just went to Summit racing and checked their compression calculator. Assuming your pistons are at zero deck and you use gaskets with a .038" compressed thickness the calculator says 10.09 to 1 and that's with flat top pistons. I will tell you that I am biased towards high compression, or at least not going any lower than you need to in order to tolerate the fuel you'll be running. There are plenty of guys, engine builders in particular who will steer people away from pushing it. Its been my experience over the years (I've been at this since the 70s) that keeping compression and/or cylinder pressure up makes a car much more fun to drive, much better off idle throttle response, less throttle opening to propel the car, it sounds better and the car will simply have more snap to it. I got talked into staying at 9 to 1 or lower twice and both times I was very disappointed with the results after spending my time and money building the engines. Now about the lifters and pushrods. The lifters get their oil from the lifter bores. There are oil galleys behind the lifter bores and the lifter bores have holes in them that supply the oil to the lifters. Since you are going to keep your non-adjustable rockers the pushrod length being correct is very important. The plunger in the lifter (hydraulic lifter) needs to be depressed in .020" to .060". Since it is a performance engine you want to stay on the low side with that, ideally around .025". You should be able to check that with a dial indicator. Install a rocker shaft with a couple of rockers and pushrods on one intake and one exhaust on a cylinder where the cam is on the base circle for both the intake and exhaust. Just get the rocker shaft bolts caught at this point, don't tighten them yet. Slowly and evenly start tightening the bolts down while constantly feeling the pushrods to find the point where they don't have any play but are not yet pushing the plunger into the lifter. Once you get there, set up the dial indicator on top of the cylinder head. You need to get the rod of the dial indicator as close to the top of the pushrod dimple on the rocker as possible and the rod needs to be as close to being in a straight line with the pushrod as possible to get accurate readings. If you have never used a dial indicator you should go on YouTube and look for tutorial videos on them. Its a little too much to write it all out here but overall its pretty simple. Once the dial indicator is set up continue tightening down the rocker shaft bolts and torque them to spec and get you reading off the dial indicator. If it turns out the pushrods are too long or too short, your best bet is to buy one pushrod length checker. All it is, is a two piece pushrod with the two parts threaded together and it has a check nut to lock it in when you reach the desired length. The pushrod length checker then gets removed and measured with a micrometer from the contact surfaces of the balls on the ends to tell you what length you need. You can also send the checker (with the jam nut good and tight) to a good pushrod vendor and they can measure it for you to get what you need. If you do that I highly recommend Smith Bros. pushrods, they are a very good company to deal with. The things to take into account with the plunger depth into the lifter is if you run it deep you're more likely to have the lifters pump up at the higher end of your RPMs and/or if you have high oil pressure. If that occurs the valves will not close all the way and there is a risk of the valves hitting the pistons. That is why I recommend staying towards the shallow side with that. Keep us posted.
chrisd426
Well-Known Member
Hey I've got a couple sets of open chamber heads I'll trade for those close chamber heads
Doosterfy
Well-Known Member
A few posts back he stated that it turned out t a solid cam with hyd lifters. He knows its no good and is going to install a new hyd cam and lifters.
dkbug
Well-Known Member
No thanks
dkbug
Well-Known Member
Great information! I will be following this precisely. I think that I actually have a pushrod length checker in the shop. When I run into town later on I will check and see.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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72 posts and nowhere did I see a timing curve,compression results, or jetting loops, or even that the fuel was fresh 93 octane.
The single biggest contributor to Detonation is in-chamber heat.I did not read anywhere about what circumstances lead to the detonation.There are so many things and so many ways, and................not one word.
Oh wait,"Not sure on the timing. Haven't had time to get out there and check it. I know the timing is close to where it needs to be. It starts with a bump."
This is about the silliest detonation diagnoses I've ever read.
Now heres the thing; by dropping the compression with open chamber heads, thus loosing that fabulous .039quench, and then introducing an earlier closing intake, you are moving in every wrong direction. Your Dcr could very well go up, and without the favorable quench, you may end up with even more detonation.
Your cylinder pressure is so easy to measure.and
Your compression ratio is so easy to figure out.and
Your timing is so easy to measure. and
Your fuel grade and freshness is so easy to change.and
Your lifter preload is so easy to measure.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but hey,you look like your drowning.
The single biggest contributor to Detonation is in-chamber heat.I did not read anywhere about what circumstances lead to the detonation.There are so many things and so many ways, and................not one word.
Oh wait,"Not sure on the timing. Haven't had time to get out there and check it. I know the timing is close to where it needs to be. It starts with a bump."
This is about the silliest detonation diagnoses I've ever read.
Now heres the thing; by dropping the compression with open chamber heads, thus loosing that fabulous .039quench, and then introducing an earlier closing intake, you are moving in every wrong direction. Your Dcr could very well go up, and without the favorable quench, you may end up with even more detonation.
Your cylinder pressure is so easy to measure.and
Your compression ratio is so easy to figure out.and
Your timing is so easy to measure. and
Your fuel grade and freshness is so easy to change.and
Your lifter preload is so easy to measure.
I hate to sound like a jerk, but hey,you look like your drowning.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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Let's start with compression. It comes in two flavors; Static and Dynamic.
Static is a measured comparison of all the possible volume that fan fit into the space above the piston when the piston is as far down as it can go versus the space when it is as far up as it can go. That's sounds easy to measure. Unfortunately, once the engine is installed it's pretty much impossible. It's easy to do when the assembled engine is on the floor.And it can be calculated before the head goes on. And it can be somewhat inferred by the cranking compression test.This test is useful to determine the engines resistance to detonation under full throttle conditions from a little under the engines point of peak torque, and upwards towards redline.
You gave us none of those.
Dynamic compression ratio is similarly measured but instead of beginning the compression stroke as far down as it goes, we use the point of intake valve closing. This figure is useful to determine the engines resistance to detonation under part throttle conditions at somewhere under the engines point of peak torque.
You were unable to supply that.
Now let's go to in-chamber heat.
While it may be true that the compression ratios are the biggest contributors to creating this heat, there are ways to fight it. Fresh hi-test burns slower, and has a higher resistance to detonation. But the bigger contributors after compression are ignition timing and A/F. If you start the fire too early for the fresh hi-test, you can almost guarantee detonation. If the fuel to air ratio is out too lunch, more propensity to detonate. If both are out to lunch, this may be where you are now. And lastly are intake temperature and coolant temps. Both of these can play important roles in detonation resistance strategies on some engines.Less so on old style grocery-getters, but this becomes more important as the engine starts to put out more power per cubic inch.
You didn't say a word about any of these parameters.
But you have made up your mind that the way out of your situation is with open chamber heads and a smaller cam. YOU made up your mind before you ever came here. YOU decided it was running rough because the cam was too big or the pushrods were too something.YOU just wanted verification, of your decisions. Sorry, I cannot jump in there. YOU may be right. But without even knowing ANY parameters.......
My apologies for sounding like a jerk, or being a jerk.
Static is a measured comparison of all the possible volume that fan fit into the space above the piston when the piston is as far down as it can go versus the space when it is as far up as it can go. That's sounds easy to measure. Unfortunately, once the engine is installed it's pretty much impossible. It's easy to do when the assembled engine is on the floor.And it can be calculated before the head goes on. And it can be somewhat inferred by the cranking compression test.This test is useful to determine the engines resistance to detonation under full throttle conditions from a little under the engines point of peak torque, and upwards towards redline.
You gave us none of those.
Dynamic compression ratio is similarly measured but instead of beginning the compression stroke as far down as it goes, we use the point of intake valve closing. This figure is useful to determine the engines resistance to detonation under part throttle conditions at somewhere under the engines point of peak torque.
You were unable to supply that.
Now let's go to in-chamber heat.
While it may be true that the compression ratios are the biggest contributors to creating this heat, there are ways to fight it. Fresh hi-test burns slower, and has a higher resistance to detonation. But the bigger contributors after compression are ignition timing and A/F. If you start the fire too early for the fresh hi-test, you can almost guarantee detonation. If the fuel to air ratio is out too lunch, more propensity to detonate. If both are out to lunch, this may be where you are now. And lastly are intake temperature and coolant temps. Both of these can play important roles in detonation resistance strategies on some engines.Less so on old style grocery-getters, but this becomes more important as the engine starts to put out more power per cubic inch.
You didn't say a word about any of these parameters.
But you have made up your mind that the way out of your situation is with open chamber heads and a smaller cam. YOU made up your mind before you ever came here. YOU decided it was running rough because the cam was too big or the pushrods were too something.YOU just wanted verification, of your decisions. Sorry, I cannot jump in there. YOU may be right. But without even knowing ANY parameters.......
My apologies for sounding like a jerk, or being a jerk.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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Now here's a little math; Let's start with a stock stroke and bore+.030. That would be 4.35 x 3.75. That calculates out to a 921.7 swept. If in fact the engine was previously 10.75Scr(post 36), that requires a total chamber volume of 94.53 cc.; 909/(10.75-1)=94.53
Since we know(or you say) the block is zero decked and you have flat-tops with no reliefs, it's easy to figure the chamber volume is 94.53 less the gasket.I have to guess at the gasket bore; say 4.40 and the thickness of .038,well that makes about 9.5cc. so that tells us that he the PO was using 94.53 - 9.5=85cc heads. That was his combo, and it makes sense, if he started with 90cc
Now your combo with the same 9.5cc gaskets and 78cc heads comes to
{921.7 + (78 + 9.5)}/87.5 = 11.53Scr
The Wallace calculator puts this at a Dcr of 8.7 and the cranking compression pressure at 177psi, with an ICA of 70* degrees using that 292/509 cam.
Now that is for sure testing the limits of pump 93. But guess what; you have the .038 quench going for you and by your own admission you're not into racing. So if you're not interested in the max power, then there is no reason to run max timing. You can run 34* or 32* of power timing if that is what it takes to kill WOT detonation.
Now let's talk PT(part throttle) detonation. At 8.7Dcr this is again pushing it, But guess what; you have not done any timing loops. There is a ton, a TON of tuning you can do to get it out of detonation at PT. A TON.
Detonation is also load sensitive. Let's take an engine that is on the edge of detonation with full timing, that is stuck in a chassis with 2.76 gears and a 2400 TC. So then you put in 3.55s and a 2800 TC, and move the detonation up several hundred rpm. Then take out 1 or 2 or 3 degrees of power timing and problem solved. But guess what; you may be able to run full PT timing and have a dynomite engine , at anything short of peak torque! See what I mean about tuning.So you can start your tune with carburetion.If the engine cannot ingest a full load of air it will not experience a full load. So a smaller carb than optimum is on the table.Well that is not said right, but the result is the same. Take the 850 off and try a 750 or a 650.Or something with a load-sensitive secondary.
Now lets put those open chamber bad boys on there with a 284/484 cam. Let's say they come in at 90cc. The Scr will be (921.7 + 90 + 9.5)/99.5 = 10.26Scr and the Wallace calc. puts that at a Dcr of 8.06,with a ICA of 66*, and pressure of 161. Phew you dodged a bullet. This is pretty safe. But guess what; you are still stuck with the problematic rocker gear.And you have lost completely, all the Quench benefits, which may have allowed the prior 11.5SCR.And you may have given up some terrific PT benefits.Which you are wanting.
I know which combo I would want under my hood. But I am willing to measure stuff and calculate stuff and tune it til it wails.
Quote from Doosterfy,(post 70)
"There are plenty of guys, engine builders in particular who will steer people away from pushing it. Its been my experience over the years (I've been at this since the 70s) that keeping compression and/or cylinder pressure up makes a car much more fun to drive, much better off idle throttle response, less throttle opening to propel the car, it sounds better and the car will simply have more snap to it. I got talked into staying at 9 to 1 or lower twice and both times I was very disappointed with the results after spending my time and money building the engines".
(My experience as well. AJ)
Sorry for the novel; it was a lot shorter in my head.
OOps, One more thing, If the big 440 gets tirespin, it is no longer loaded.Wrap your head around that for a sec.
Since we know(or you say) the block is zero decked and you have flat-tops with no reliefs, it's easy to figure the chamber volume is 94.53 less the gasket.I have to guess at the gasket bore; say 4.40 and the thickness of .038,well that makes about 9.5cc. so that tells us that he the PO was using 94.53 - 9.5=85cc heads. That was his combo, and it makes sense, if he started with 90cc
Now your combo with the same 9.5cc gaskets and 78cc heads comes to
{921.7 + (78 + 9.5)}/87.5 = 11.53Scr
The Wallace calculator puts this at a Dcr of 8.7 and the cranking compression pressure at 177psi, with an ICA of 70* degrees using that 292/509 cam.
Now that is for sure testing the limits of pump 93. But guess what; you have the .038 quench going for you and by your own admission you're not into racing. So if you're not interested in the max power, then there is no reason to run max timing. You can run 34* or 32* of power timing if that is what it takes to kill WOT detonation.
Now let's talk PT(part throttle) detonation. At 8.7Dcr this is again pushing it, But guess what; you have not done any timing loops. There is a ton, a TON of tuning you can do to get it out of detonation at PT. A TON.
Detonation is also load sensitive. Let's take an engine that is on the edge of detonation with full timing, that is stuck in a chassis with 2.76 gears and a 2400 TC. So then you put in 3.55s and a 2800 TC, and move the detonation up several hundred rpm. Then take out 1 or 2 or 3 degrees of power timing and problem solved. But guess what; you may be able to run full PT timing and have a dynomite engine , at anything short of peak torque! See what I mean about tuning.So you can start your tune with carburetion.If the engine cannot ingest a full load of air it will not experience a full load. So a smaller carb than optimum is on the table.Well that is not said right, but the result is the same. Take the 850 off and try a 750 or a 650.Or something with a load-sensitive secondary.
Now lets put those open chamber bad boys on there with a 284/484 cam. Let's say they come in at 90cc. The Scr will be (921.7 + 90 + 9.5)/99.5 = 10.26Scr and the Wallace calc. puts that at a Dcr of 8.06,with a ICA of 66*, and pressure of 161. Phew you dodged a bullet. This is pretty safe. But guess what; you are still stuck with the problematic rocker gear.And you have lost completely, all the Quench benefits, which may have allowed the prior 11.5SCR.And you may have given up some terrific PT benefits.Which you are wanting.
I know which combo I would want under my hood. But I am willing to measure stuff and calculate stuff and tune it til it wails.
Quote from Doosterfy,(post 70)
"There are plenty of guys, engine builders in particular who will steer people away from pushing it. Its been my experience over the years (I've been at this since the 70s) that keeping compression and/or cylinder pressure up makes a car much more fun to drive, much better off idle throttle response, less throttle opening to propel the car, it sounds better and the car will simply have more snap to it. I got talked into staying at 9 to 1 or lower twice and both times I was very disappointed with the results after spending my time and money building the engines".
(My experience as well. AJ)
Sorry for the novel; it was a lot shorter in my head.
OOps, One more thing, If the big 440 gets tirespin, it is no longer loaded.Wrap your head around that for a sec.
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