'452 Heads Hardened Seats

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Boedighw

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Guys,

Good morning, picked up a later 70's 440 with '452 Heads. So far everything has measured to be a real tight engine with some natural Carbon build up. Took the heads in to get Hot tanked and "checked out".
They had enough time to simply strip them and soak them over night. They didn't check the spring ratings (assumed they were stock) but had the following recommendations:
* Purchase Comp springs to match my Comp 274XE Cam (probably great advice)
* Install Hardened Seats
* Install new liners
* Install new valves
ETC: $500+Springs

Are new guides needed? I have checked the valve taper at home and they are in spec. Dropping the valves in the guides they have zero wiggle (I know I need to check with a dial indicator).

Second I thought the '452 heads had Induction Hardening Seats, will these not work with a hobby car? This isn't my daily driver, just a fun weekend car.

After testing the guides and having Factory H-Seats, the thought was to blend the bowls and lap the valves for re-assembly.

The long term goal is just to replace these with 440 Source or Edelbrock, but wanted to get the engine back together and spend money on the short block right now (and Schumacher Headers).

Still need to go over the block but the cylinders are shiny (no cross hatch visible) and measure at 4.34, which tells me it is ready for overbore and hone. This is just FYI to backup my thoughts that the heads are good to go.
 
sounds like they did not inspect anything. they saw Mopar and thought this guy is rich!
I would be looking for another machine shop.
 
I agree they didn't do a thorough job, however, I want to give them the benefit they are just wanting CYA. I'm figuring they would rather do all the headwork at once or nothing at all.

Can anyone confirm the notes above:
1) Hardened Seats form .452 are ok for street use?
2) Tight guides don't need to be replaced? ie .0025 I think it the goal to shoot for
3) While 3 Angles will give the power bump, for a easy build, lapping the valves to seats that look "good" is acceptable?
 
Boedighw said:
I agree they didn't do a thorough job, however, I want to give them the benefit they are just wanting CYA. I'm figuring they would rather do all the headwork at once or nothing at all.

Can anyone confirm the notes above:
1) Hardened Seats form .452 are ok for street use?
2) Tight guides don't need to be replaced? ie .0025 I think it the goal to shoot for
3) While 3 Angles will give the power bump, for a easy build, lapping the valves to seats that look "good" is acceptable?
Click to expand...

Sounds like they want to do a good job on your heads and $500 + springs is cheap.

1) Hardened seats in 452 heads are not hard inserts but induction hardening of the cast iron head in the seat area. This isn't very thick and can be ground out doing a valve job. BUT in a mild, stock, no hard use application, it will be along time before you see seat recession on the exhaust valve side.
2) Tight guides don't need to be replaced, loose ones don't have to be replaced, but nobody here knows for sure what you have. That is why you ask the machine shop.
3) Lapping bad seats that "look good" will give you shiny, good looking, bad seats.

Why mess with the machine shop at all, just do what you think is best. Clean, shine, replace, paint and slap'er together. Heck, use the stock springs and set the rev limiter to 4,100 rpm.
 
IQ,

Thanks bud, what gave me inspiration was your low compression 440 and start from there. While it probably is the most cost effective to build the "perfect engine" all at once, I have also seen a lot of projects get abandoned since they bite off to much. I want to get the Cast Iron top end in with the 650 Edelbrock carb I have and running, than I can replace the whole top end 1 year from now.

I honestly believe the machine shop means well, but seems to be giving me the one size fits all answer.

1) 10-4 Hardened seats, that confirms what I have read from members.
2) shopping for a split ball indicator to check the delta between the guide and the valves, from what I can tell .002-.005 is acceptable.
3) Can you expand on this? Is there anything I can measure? Or am I stuck simply re-grinding the seats to make them true? I was avoiding this for the first reason, that the induction isn't exactly deep.

I like the last paragraph, since I'm trying to do this the best way I can and then pay the pro's to check out the aluminum heads once it is all running.
 
A machine shop does what they have suggested. A Hobbyist cleans 'em up, puts the valves back in the same holes, replaces the springs and uses new umbrella seals. And guess what, it runs.
 
Understood, so when the members here purchase a set of 440Source.com or Procomp heads and have the "Professionals" check them out are the looking for the same items? IE, Valve Guide Clearance, Re-Grinding Seats with their machines, installed spring height, ect.

I was reading about purchasing a valve height Mic last night to verify the install height of the springs and clearance against the valve stems.

Finally, the last piece of the puzzle would be making sure the guides are truly perpendicular to the valve seat, correct? All interesting stuff.
 
Boedighw said:
Understood, so when the members here purchase a set of 440Source.com or Procomp heads and have the "Professionals" check them out are the looking for the same items? IE, Valve Guide Clearance, Re-Grinding Seats with their machines, installed spring height, ect.

I was reading about purchasing a valve height Mic last night to verify the install height of the springs and clearance against the valve stems.

Finally, the last piece of the puzzle would be making sure the guides are truly perpendicular to the valve seat, correct? All interesting stuff.
Click to expand...
This thread was started to show most of the work done to typical, new OOTB head using the Stealth as an example. Post #7 give list of most of the work done to the head in a service prep. One of the things missed was checking all the spring pocket heights vs the heads deck surface.
 
Some shops' equipment needs GOOD guides in order to get a valve job of quality. Set up a top of the line Serdii machine on a tapered guide and you're liable to have a really messy seat. Like IQ said - $500 is cheap, and the hardening is not deep in the heads. If you are not going larger in exh valve size you may be through the hardning by recutting the seat on the smaller valve. Hence the recommendation for new seats. Do them right, sell them when you're done. Or do nothing and accept whatever the heads give you for performance. I've done both before so no judgements here.
 
First, $500 is way cheap. Second-you may want to pick up a set of inexpensive stainless valves 2.14/1.81 oversized so you can salvage your seats really nicely. Moving to even a cheap stainless valve has another benefit -you don't need hardened exhaust seats with a stainless valve. What happens with a non-stainless valve and heads from the days or 'yore is every time the valve closes then opens a tiny piece of seat rips away. This is why leaded fuel provides lubricity--it stops the materials from sticking together. Stainless valves don't do this even without lead. J.Rob
 
Wow, didn't know that. Is it less to put in stainless valves than get the seats hardened?
 
RAMM said:
First, $500 is way cheap. Second-you may want to pick up a set of inexpensive stainless valves 2.14/1.81 oversized so you can salvage your seats really nicely. Moving to even a cheap stainless valve has another benefit -you don't need hardened exhaust seats with a stainless valve. What happens with a non-stainless valve and heads from the days or 'yore is every time the valve closes then opens a tiny piece of seat rips away. This is why leaded fuel provides lubricity--it stops the materials from sticking together. Stainless valves don't do this even without lead. J.Rob
Click to expand...
This, even I was unaware of. More information please. I use stainless valves in most every head that goes out of here.
 
IQ52 said:
This, even I was unaware of. More information please. I use stainless valves in most every head that goes out of here.
Click to expand...

I've noticed this over the years but passed it off as kind of an after thought, until a VERY sharp landspeed racer started dyno testing here a few years ago. We hit it off and started sharing info and experiences. It was him that suggested this and I went back and checked some of my notes on long term builds that have come back in for refresh/updates/displacement changes. On every build that had old iron heads with S.S. valves but non-hardened seats the recession was nill. We believe that when the materials are LIKE that micro-welding occurs and the weaker material rips away and is consumed by heat. S.S. seems to prevent this even on old plain Jane iron. I haven't conducted tests in a lab or anything like that but our observations seem to line up. J.Rob
 
Hmmm, I too have not experienced valve seat recession in an iron head with stainless steel valves. We've even hammered really long and hard on unleaded pump gas engines with 906 iron heads making 730+ horsepower. Huh..........
 
IQ52 said:
Hmmm, I too have not experienced valve seat recession in an iron head with stainless steel valves. We've even hammered really long and hard on unleaded pump gas engines with 906 iron heads making 730+ horsepower. Huh..........
Click to expand...

Best part is --Doesn't seem to matter if they are really good/expensive S.S. or cheapies. J.Rob
 
RAMM said:
Best part is --Doesn't seem to matter if they are really good/expensive S.S. or cheapies. J.Rob
Click to expand...
Do you know of any cheapie or mid-priced stainless valves in 1.88 and 1.60 for SB? Not having much luck finding the 1.88's. Thanks!
 
keeling machine in santa clara ca did my heads , had no issues getting that size . who's doing your heads now ? gary keeling is his name . he's fair priced , and nice work .
 
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