64 Dart Front Drum Removal (and more!)

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victordemise

victordemise

1964 Dart 270 4 Door
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Location
Portland Oregon
Soon I will be replacing my 64 Dart's front brakes, drums and all.

I have opted not to do a disc conversion kit for three reasons:
1)Cost (Like I need another reason after that!)
2)Keeping the car as close to original as I can
3)I have never had any problem with stopping power whatsoever w/drums

I've never serviced the brakes on this car yet, but on my old 74 Dart Sport, the rear drum basically came right off once the tire/rim was removed. Are the front drums on the 64 really very different? Any tricks I will need to know?
I realize it may require relaxing the adjuster/star wheel mechanism, but besides that, anything I should know?

(It may be a few weeks before I do this job, as I may have to purchase the parts over a few pay periods. I intend to go all-out and do the bearings, seals, springs, whatever else, unless it's obviously not needed (The last owner was really good about maintenance!!)

Another question. I still have a single resevior master cylinder, and I am considering an upgrade to a double. Any problem with that on a car with front drums? I realize I will need a valve/splitter (at least I think I will!)

Fill me with knowledge!!
 
Well if your brakes are like the ones on my 68 Dart, they are a "little" different than th eback ones.

To remove the drums on mine, you take the wheel off first. (obviously).

IF the drums are the factory originals, you will not be able to simply pull them off, even with the brakes adjusted loosely. The drums (on mine anyhow) are held to the wheel hub, via the wheel studs. See pic below.

The stud on the left has been swaged/swollen from the factory. The stud on the right, has had the swage ground down (with a die grinder or file even). Do this, and you should be able to pull the drum off. I find it easier to do it on the work bench. Just remove the dust cap, and take the nut and bearing off the spindle, and start grinding.

Hope this helps

codfish

5179789-Drumstuds.jpg
 
Wow. That is odd.
GREAT picture. Thanks!
I doubt the drums are the originals, or if they are, they must've been off before now, but I'll have to have a look before I set about doing the job.

I mean, you'd think in 45 years the brakes have been done!
I don't know how hard they'll be to remove if they've been off before.

I'm guessing I'll have to replace the lugs too(?) Mine are reverse threaded on one side I believe. I suppose I can change that too if I change the lugs.
That's pretty weird. Glad I asked!!

Since I'll be replacing the drums, I wonder if they can be done so in the future they will come right off, like on later models, or if they have to be re-swaged/swollen back on?
If anyone else has any insights on this, please...
 
watch the video, the stupid 15-20 second commercial, before the video you want is worth the wait.

The front drums are held on via bearings and a large nut/cotter pin etc.

Sounds like you need a Service Manual.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2327948_remove-front-drum-brakes.html

victordemise said:
Soon I will be replacing my 64 Dart's front brakes, drums and all.

I have opted not to do a disc conversion kit for three reasons:
1)Cost (Like I need another reason after that!)
2)Keeping the car as close to original as I can
3)I have never had any problem with stopping power whatsoever w/drums

I've never serviced the brakes on this car yet, but on my old 74 Dart Sport, the rear drum basically came right off once the tire/rim was removed. Are the front drums on the 64 really very different? Any tricks I will need to know?
I realize it may require relaxing the adjuster/star wheel mechanism, but besides that, anything I should know?

(It may be a few weeks before I do this job, as I may have to purchase the parts over a few pay periods. I intend to go all-out and do the bearings, seals, springs, whatever else, unless it's obviously not needed (The last owner was really good about maintenance!!)

Another question. I still have a single resevior master cylinder, and I am considering an upgrade to a double. Any problem with that on a car with front drums? I realize I will need a valve/splitter (at least I think I will!)

Fill me with knowledge!!
Click to expand...
 
No, swaging is NOT necessary.

The drums can be removed, to say check or replace the shoes, by removing the drum AND hub as one. My 68 had the original drums as of last week. So your drums may have been removed, but NOT replaced. It's possible.

As for changing the studs, not necessary unless they're broken or stripped.

codfish

In that video, the drum was removed WITH the hub. No need to replace the hub if it's fine. Cool video though.
 
Quote A:
The front drums are held on via bearings and a large nut/cotter pin etc.

Quote B:
The drums can be removed, to say check or replace the shoes, by removing the drum AND hub as one.

Okay, Now I'm getting a picture of what's going on, and what I'll be dealing with.
THANK YOU BOTH (all?)

(...and I'm about to watch the video, which I'm sure will fill in any blanks that remain. Like I said, I won't be doing this for a week or two, by then I should pretty much know what I'm doing, unless those pesky answers lead to more questions!)
 
So, if I am replacing the drums, I will have to replace the studs as well (since I don't see new drums sold with studs)???

It's weird to me that the studs are part of the drum, so to speak, and not just poked through, like the rear drums on my 74 Sport were.

What sort of place do I go to, to have studs "implanted" into my drums? A machine shop of some sort? Who swages? (That sounds odd.)

(I'm pretty dang sure these drums cant be turned, but then maybe I'll get lucky. And wont it be awkward to turn drums with studs in them?
Seems like it would be nearly a lost art.
V.D. Temecula CA
 
If your drums are still swaged in then you will need to find a shop that has the bit to cut them off. it looks like a hole saw that fits over the stud and cuts the area around the base off. to put them back on you do not need to swage them back on. just keep it like the rear so it slides back on and off. this is if you need new drums, if not like stated earlier you just pull the drum and hub off as an assy. and bring the whole thing in. it still mounts on the lathe only with different adapters. i have done it quite a few times.

oh, and yes if you do need new drums then yes you will also need new studs.
 
Thanks. I'm sure once I have it done, or do it myself (whichever) it will all be clearer.
Guess there's a reason they don'r make them that way any more!
They don't, do they?
No need to reply.
V.D.
 
I'm not sure but I thought NAPA or Advance or KOI, offered a front drum kit. I thought it came as a unit with drum, studs, hub, races, all in the unit? This was before I inspected them, still didn't need them yet. I'm pretty sure it was Advance auto.
 
Thanks. That could turn out to be really handy.
In fact, I'll go check out NAPA's site and see what I find there.
 
camd64 said:
oh, and yes if you do need new drums then yes you will also need new studs.
Click to expand...

Why??

A flat file, or a dremel tool can be used to remove the "swage" from the stud, and the drum can then be easily removed from the hub, leaving the studs on the hub. No need to replace the studs.

codfish
 
The swage rolls over the knurl area of the stud, if you then cut this area down you are weakening the stud right at the worst possible point. plus a new stud is under 2 dollars so why risk your safety. as far as using a file or dremel you possibly could but it would take quite awhile. the tool for cutting the swage is just put in a drill and takes a few minutes to remove all of them.
 
camd64 said:
The swage rolls over the knurl area of the stud, if you then cut this area down you are weakening the stud right at the worst possible point. plus a new stud is under 2 dollars so why risk your safety. as far as using a file or dremel you possibly could but it would take quite awhile. the tool for cutting the swage is just put in a drill and takes a few minutes to remove all of them.
Click to expand...
I had to do the brakes (over and over again) on the wifes 67. The 2 fronts were different I guess due to previous replacement. (10" drum system) The pass front came off in one drum, races studs hub and all. you had to pop grease seal to get to the back bearing, this was all removed with, grease cap, cotter pin, crown nut cover, nut, keyed washer, if you hold your thumb over hole the front bearing won,t fall on the floor!
The drivers side however came off with just drum (like back) you could inspect brakes without removing even the grease cap! The don't sell it that way any more, (Safety) Due to: When you put drum and wheel back on it's all held together. On the 67 couple of the studs had been replaced. Not super tight anymore, a little woble, when you put it all back together, if your not real carefull you will not get wheel into center of hub and will develope high speed wobble. Mostly sold as 1 piece unit now. Good Luck!
 
All I know is, when I went to have a look at my brakes, many months back, I jacked her up, removed the tire, and figured, "a drum's a drum", (like the rears on my 74 Sport). Yet the dang drum didn't just slide off like I had expected. So I just replaced the tire and decided to worry about it later.
Now it's later.
I'm now hoping that when I remove the center nut/cotter pin, the drum (and just the drum) will come off, and be in good shape and then I can just replace the shoes, for now.

It's no surprise they don't make them that way any more.
It sort of seems less safe to have the studs as a 'part of the drum', rather than passing through the drum, though, it may make little to no difference safety-wise.

I wanted to replace the drums, bearings (as long as I'm in there), spring kit, the whole shebang, but it's going to depend on how involved (and expensive) this all turns out to be. If I can get all the parts for around say, $200.00, and do it myself, great!
I had no trouble at all doing the brakes on the Sport, once I bought that retaining pin install/removal tool!! Life can SUCK without one of those!!

If, however, this job entails machine shop work (to remove the old studs, and press the new ones (definitely new ones) into the new drums, or having to take the entire assembly off the car, well I don't know. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

CODFISH- You seem to imply that the studs do pass through the drum, but are also swaged on (?) so that the unit's not going to open until the "swages" are cut. (THE SWAYGES OF SIN IS DEATH!!!)

Quote:
"IF the drums are the factory originals, you will not be able to simply pull them off, even with the brakes adjusted loosely. The drums (on mine anyhow) are held to the wheel hub, via the wheel studs." -Codfish

THEN, in CAVEMANMORON's video link, the studs are attached to the drum, which comes off easily once you remove the center nut/cotter pin, making replacing the brake shoes relatively easy (like my Sport).
I'm hoping it works out like the video, whether I need new drums/lugs or not.

Oh, this IS fun!! :cheers:
 
The hub centers the drum; it doesn't matter if the stud holes are bigger in the drum; 11" factory drums come with a 5/8" hole for a 1/2" stud. Later 10" was the same way.
 
green1 said:
The hub centers the drum; it doesn't matter if the stud holes are bigger in the drum; 11" factory drums come with a 5/8" hole for a 1/2" stud. Later 10" was the same way.
Click to expand...

Now it seems you're referring to studs that pass through the drum with holes (common on later model drum brake set-ups), as opposed to when the studs are part of the drum, and are firmly attached to the drum itself.

Yes, with the pass through design (like my 74 Dart Sport rear drums), sure, the hub will center the drum (and anything bolted to the drum) and the holes are a little larger, however, with the attached, or "sweged-on" studs, they have to be solidly attached to the drum (it's a drum/stud unit), or the tire (while centered) will still be in danger of wiggling or slipping on its axis.

This is how I see it right now, but until I get in there and actually have a look at it, I'm not absolutely certain of anything!!:thumbup:
 
victordemise said:
All I know is, when I went to have a look at my brakes, many months back, I jacked her up, removed the tire, and figured, "a drum's a drum", (like the rears on my 74 Sport). Yet the dang drum didn't just slide off like I had expected. So I just replaced the tire and decided to worry about it later.
Now it's later.
I'm now hoping that when I remove the center nut/cotter pin, the drum (and just the drum) will come off, and be in good shape and then I can just replace the shoes, for now.

It's no surprise they don't make them that way any more.
It sort of seems less safe to have the studs as a 'part of the drum', rather than passing through the drum, though, it may make little to no difference safety-wise.

I wanted to replace the drums, bearings (as long as I'm in there), spring kit, the whole shebang, but it's going to depend on how involved (and expensive) this all turns out to be. If I can get all the parts for around say, $200.00, and do it myself, great!
I had no trouble at all doing the brakes on the Sport, once I bought that retaining pin install/removal tool!! Life can SUCK without one of those!!

If, however, this job entails machine shop work (to remove the old studs, and press the new ones (definitely new ones) into the new drums, or having to take the entire assembly off the car, well I don't know. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

CODFISH- You seem to imply that the studs do pass through the drum, but are also swaged on (?) so that the unit's not going to open until the "swages" are cut. (THE SWAYGES OF SIN IS DEATH!!!)

Quote:
"IF the drums are the factory originals, you will not be able to simply pull them off, even with the brakes adjusted loosely. The drums (on mine anyhow) are held to the wheel hub, via the wheel studs." -Codfish

THEN, in CAVEMANMORON's video link, the studs are attached to the drum, which comes off easily once you remove the center nut/cotter pin, making replacing the brake shoes relatively easy (like my Sport).
I'm hoping it works out like the video, whether I need new drums/lugs or not.

Oh, this IS fun!! :cheers:
Click to expand...
I also saw in a mopar mag someone selling complete axle kit for $89.00! I'm going that route on the 64, Replaced part by part on the 67 and wished I hadn't!
 
Whoa pardner. From the beginning, Mopar put left hand thread studs on the driver's side of the car through the 1972 model year. Many have been broken off over the years by apes with air powered impact wrenches. Some were replaced with LH studs others with RH. The stud should be stamped RH or LH depending on the threading at the end of the stud (visible with the wheel on the car. Make sure you know what you're starting with before you get going too far.

Suggest checking the rear axle on the driver's side to see if it has LH studs. If so, then the front should be LH also, just to maintain some sort of consistency. There is nothing "wrong" with LH studs. The idea was that the forward rotation of the wheel would encourage the nut to tighten if it was to move at all. Dorman makes LH studs in a variety of profiles. I used them on two 66s I restored.
 
I also need to rebuild my brakes.
Scary part it putting it back together right
 
72 Demon said:
Whoa pardner. From the beginning, Mopar put left hand thread studs on the driver's side of the car through the 1972 model year. Many have been broken off over the years by apes with air powered impact wrenches. Some were replaced with LH studs others with RH. The stud should be stamped RH or LH depending on the threading at the end of the stud (visible with the wheel on the car. Make sure you know what you're starting with before you get going too far.

Suggest checking the rear axle on the driver's side to see if it has LH studs. If so, then the front should be LH also, just to maintain some sort of consistency. There is nothing "wrong" with LH studs. The idea was that the forward rotation of the wheel would encourage the nut to tighten if it was to move at all. Dorman makes LH studs in a variety of profiles. I used them on two 66s I restored.
Click to expand...

swedged studs, not left handed or right handed.
 
I am trying to accomplish this same job on my '64 Barracuda. I was wondering how your project turned out? I have new front brake drums but need to reuse the wheel hubs. I want to convert to right hand studs because, yes, a couple of the left hand ones are broken. I gather from the previous notes that once I grind off the swaged part of the old studs, the hub will drop out?
 
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