66 Dart still surgeing.Electrical??

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pettybludart

pettybludart

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My 66 Dart 360/904 has a surge to it.Ran fine til I went to the track.Now it has a surge to it?I swapped carbs thinking it might have sucked something in(ran with no breather)not that.So now I,m wondering if it,s electrical?Could it be the ballist?ECU?regulator going bad?When idleing,it like bahba bahba bah,but giving it gas it,s there?Could it be a bad ballist?I,m hopeing it,s an easy fix,motor is a 77 360.What about the balancer coming apart?Does it have a rubber ring in it?Help anybody?Thanks.
 
from the other post did you ever get a timing light on it? if you went to the track and only changed the timing I gotta think its either not set right or the balancer has slipped. Id go through the ignition first checking out things also like the air gap for the pickup, voltage tests, advance components, etc. Then if your good there look at things like intake leaks and fuel pressure.
 
I,ve prettywell gone over it,i,m thinking that the balancer has slipped?Can you edjahmacate me on these 2 piece balancer,s(rubber?)I,m new to these.
 
yep they are two piece with a rubber ring. once the rubber cracks and starts to spit out then the outer ring slips and screws up your timing reading. you can see in the pic where i'm pointing to the timing mark in reference to the crank key. also note that you can't see the ring from the front. Johnny.

bala.jpg


bal.jpg
 
Well thanks for the pics. Camd64 ,also the explanation on my timing going BahBaBaH?LOL!I,m gonna say this is my problem.Cars running but my timing is jumping back and forth kinda?I turned up the idle,just to try and set my timing,but it kept jumping back and forth.(I tryed re-setting timing quickly after work today)after swapping my carb.I,ve heard of this happening(balancer splitting)didn,t think it would happen my first shot at the track?This explains my poor runs.I,ll try a new one.Thanks for the help!
 
If you think it's a timing problem I would be tempted to adjust the timing up or down with the engine running until the surge goes away. (If you can get it to surge without driving it) Kinda' like timing it by ear. I'm sure an old tune-up mechanic with a scope could hook it up and tell you whether you have a bad
control box or other component. Without some diagnostics, you have to replace components until the problem is fixed. (like you did with the carb). Is there any older Mopar techs out there that may have run into these symptoms before.
Usually surging is caused by a lean condition and by switching carbs may not change much. Did you suck a intake gasket in? Spray a little carb spray around the base of the intake with the engine running and listen for a change in the way the engine runs. Just some suggestions. Good luck and keep us posted.
toolmanmike
 
toolmanmike said:
If you think it's a timing problem I would be tempted to adjust the timing up or down with the engine running until the surge goes away. (If you can get it to surge without driving it) Kinda' like timing it by ear. I'm sure an old tune-up mechanic with a scope could hook it up and tell you whether you have a bad
control box or other component. Without some diagnostics, you have to replace components until the problem is fixed. (like you did with the carb). Is there any older Mopar techs out there that may have run into these symptoms before.
Usually surging is caused by a lean condition and by switching carbs may not change much. Did you suck a intake gasket in? Spray a little carb spray around the base of the intake with the engine running and listen for a change in the way the engine runs. Just some suggestions. Good luck and keep us posted.
toolmanmike
Click to expand...
Thanks Toolmanmike,I,ve been around cars for 30 years,just not Mopars with a 77 360 rubber frickin ringed balancer!LOL.I,m gonna bet on this one just by the way it was running(jumping back and forth,surging)at idle.Believe me this H.balancer thing has been sitting in the back of my head all week.Just didn,t think it would happen on a re-built motor.Obviously it,s the orig. 77 piece.
 
I really doubt a bad rubber ring in the balancer is causing the timing to jump back and forth. If it was that loose it'd surely come apart. Timing jumping around is usually a worn bronze bushing in the block that the oil pump shaft goes through. That's the same shaft that drives the distributor and when it gets worn it slops around and causes erratic timing.

BTW: The balancer Johnny showed is the old style 74 or 75 on back. Yours should have the new style which you can see the rubber from the front.
 
Oh yeah. Every older balancer (80 on back) I've ever seen by any company used rubber to divide the outer and inner ring like Mopars. You just may not have noticed it. May even have been 90 or later before they started using solid balancers.
 
fishy68 said:
I really doubt a bad rubber ring in the balancer is causing the timing to jump back and forth. If it was that loose it'd surely come apart. Timing jumping around is usually a worn bronze bushing in the block that the oil pump shaft goes through. That's the same shaft that drives the distributor and when it gets worn it slops around and causes erratic timing.

BTW: The balancer Johnny showed is the old style 74 or 75 on back. Yours should have the new style which you can see the rubber from the front.
Click to expand...


If fishy68 is correct this piece will fix it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Timing bouncing around anyway that is.......

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...aXZlIEh1Z2hlcyBFbmdpbmVzIEl0ZW1z&partid=25200
 
Fishy68,the balancer is covered in paint by P.O.I,ll check to see if paint is cracked,moved?If not,how much does this shaft bushing move to cause irratic timing shift?Does this happen often?I guess I,ll be pulling the intake?
 
first thing i would do is make sure when the motor is at tdc that the balancer is at tdc. if your off then you won't ever get an accurate reading. it may look like your at 36 but might be only at 26 or whatever. a home made piston stop is a good tool to have.
 
pettybludart said:
Fishy68,the balancer is covered in paint by P.O.I,ll check to see if paint is cracked,moved?If not,how much does this shaft bushing move to cause irratic timing shift?Does this happen often?I guess I,ll be pulling the intake?
Click to expand...

Yeah check the balancer like Johnny said. They do slip from time to time. The bushing being worn out is common on old blocks and mine was worn when I bought my car and it let the timing jump around about 4 degrees but I imagine the worse it is the more it will vary. The bad news is you have to drive it out from the bottom side upwards and have a special tool to burnish it in. I think I'd try one of the Hughes collars in the link Mad Dart showed. That'd be an easy fix if it works.
 
I,m gonna have to diagnos this alittle further.You guys have many more years experience with these issues.Thanks for all help and advise,I,ll post back with my findings.
 
fishy68 said:
Yeah check the balancer like Johnny said. They do slip from time to time. The bushing being worn out is common on old blocks and mine was worn when I bought my car and it let the timing jump around about 4 degrees but I imagine the worse it is the more it will vary. The bad news is you have to drive it out from the bottom side upwards and have a special tool to burnish it in. I think I'd try one of the Hughes collars in the link Mad Dart showed. That'd be an easy fix if it works.
Click to expand...
DOOHHWW!(HOMER SIMPSON)I,m hoping it,s the balancer now.
 
toolmanmike said:
If you think it's a timing problem I would be tempted to adjust the timing up or down with the engine running until the surge goes away. (If you can get it to surge without driving it) Kinda' like timing it by ear. I'm sure an old tune-up mechanic with a scope could hook it up and tell you whether you have a bad
control box or other component. Without some diagnostics, you have to replace components until the problem is fixed. (like you did with the carb). Is there any older Mopar techs out there that may have run into these symptoms before.
Usually surging is caused by a lean condition and by switching carbs may not change much. Did you suck a intake gasket in? Spray a little carb spray around the base of the intake with the engine running and listen for a change in the way the engine runs. Just some suggestions. Good luck and keep us posted.
toolmanmike
Click to expand...
I tried spraying carb. spray around th base last week.No leaks.My timing was set at the track,running fine at idle(15 on vac. guage)After a couple more pulls at the track is when I started having issues.I bought the holley 750 2 weeks ago and was swapping regardless.I,m hoping it,s just the balancer.Gotta have a looky see!
 
Well this morning I went out to the 66 Dart and reached down to the harmonic balancer,low and behold the rubber rings shifted and hanging out.I took this pic. and you can see it hanging out(painted blue)I hope this is the end of my surge?Thanks for the help guys and a speacial thanks to Camd64 for the pics.!

re and re of 66 Dart 017.jpg
 
I hope that's the solution! Wish you were a little closer, we could diagnose it over a ice cold Labatts! LOL Good luck! toolman
 
I would check the plugs...I'm willing to bet they're fouled...my souped up Ranchero does the same thing after doing too many short trips...I don't think the balancer is causing your surge...good luck
 
Yep that's a roached balancer alright. You probably know this but don't run it cause if it's shifted it's probably out of balance now.
 
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