67 Dart cooling issues

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sledger46

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Hello all,

I recieved my new radiator and I swapped it in place of the old radiator.
radcompare.jpg


I mounted my electric fan and heavy duty water pump. I gutted my old 180 thermostat to side step any thermostat not opening issues.

radinstalled.jpg


The fan flows 2400 CFM. It was the highest flowing fan I could find that would fit in the tight confines between the radiator and the water pump.

I used 2 bottles of Water Wetter and 3/4 of a gallon of coolant with the rest being water. When I fired the car up and let it run for a few minutes the temperature settled at 140 degrees. A test drive on city streets resulted in a 185 degree reading back at the garage. A test drive on the highway at 3000 - 3200 RPM (55-60 MPH with 3.91s) resulted in 210 temps within 2 miles. It is getting hotter faster now when it is 85 degrees out then it did with the old radiator in 100 degree temps. I am pretty frustrated and stumped at this point. I guess I can try swapping back to the stock fan, but I don't have a shroud.

Any ideas?


Summary
  • Radiator - 3 row cross flow aluminum
  • Water pump - 8 blade impeller
  • Fan - 2400 CFM 17" electric
  • Thermostat - gutted std flow 180 - basically a plate with a hole.
 
sledger46 said:
Hello all,

Summary
  • Radiator - 3 row cross flow aluminum
  • Water pump - 8 blade impeller
  • Fan - 2400 CFM 17" electric
  • Thermostat - gutted std flow 180 - basically a plate with a hole.
Click to expand...
I'd try putting in a good 180 thermostat. We/I did a 65 b body that drove me nuts and it turned out to be the the case , we could let it idle all day long and it wouldn't overheat but if you drove it for any length of time it would heat up and keep on going, We put in a new 180 and it kept the heat down to 180 even driving in stop and go at the woodward dream cruise last year , basically the plate with a hole in it does not hold the coolant in the radiator long enough to cool it. I did later put the original fan and shroud back on instead of electric fans. Now it runs 175ish or so even in 100 temps. plus if I jump on it it will YANK the temps down to about 150 really quick. I'm thinking of trying a 195 thermostat to try and get it near 180/185
 
Put the stat back in

I don't care for any "non shroud' setup

Can you post a specific link (part no) for that fan? I want to figure out if it's reversible.

What is the timing? You run a vacuum advance?

ANY chance you have a seeping head gasket into coolant?
 
X? on the stat.
Put a 180 in it.
Thermostats aren't just for getting the engine warm fast.
 
I am going thru the same problem, except I have 3 smaller fans w/ a fan shroud, Proform Electric Water Pump, 3 core 22" champion radiator, 2 containers of water wetter, no anti-freeze, new high output alternator with the Nacho wire fix (to keep charging at 13.7 volts) and the car temp goes up to 210 when driving. I am not super worried about 210, but I was really hoping to keep it lower. I do have a thermostat in the car, and may need to change it to be sure it is 180 degree, as I forgot what I had put in there. The air is ripping with the 3 fans, and I even put the rubber block off piece under the hood to keep any air from short cycling. Maybe I should have went with the 3 core 26" wide, but I made the factory shroud work so well......
 
67Dart273 said:
Put the stat back in

I don't care for any "non shroud' setup

Can you post a specific link (part no) for that fan? I want to figure out if it's reversible.

What is the timing? You run a vacuum advance?

ANY chance you have a seeping head gasket into coolant?
Click to expand...

The fan is a Derale unit it is reversible by flipping the fan over.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-18217

Timing is at 12 deg initial with 36 degrees total. Yes, I run the vacuum advance connected to a manifold vacuum source.

I am not seeing any bubbles in the coolant with the cap off, so I am not sure if I have a seeping head gasket. There is no coolant in the oil.
 
t-stat/shroud. never had any luck with the water wetter.
 
From the Summit description:


"....................symmetrical design, ................can be mounted as a pusher or puller, with no need for blade flipping"

If the above is indeed your fan, what this means is, the fan blades are equally poor in both directions. There is no such thing as a well designed, reversible blade. All well designed blades are "cupped" just like an aircraft wing, and are only efficient in ONE direction

Look at the mechanical fan you took off. It has a definite front and rear, and I can assure you that if you turn it around (rear of blade facing front) It will STILL pull some air through the radiator, but not nearly as much as when properly mounted.

One has to wonder if that fan can really move that much air.
 
How about air pockets in the back of the block. Try jacking up the front of the car and either let it set for a day or run it. If you fill it always fill a fresh block from the water neck with the t-stat removed. This eliminates air getting trapped in the back of the block that will cause steam pockets.

I also see you have a overflow bottle. If you see air bubbles in it while running then it could be a head gasket leak or a cracked head.
 
67Dart273 said:
From the Summit description:


"....................symmetrical design, ................can be mounted as a pusher or puller, with no need for blade flipping"

If the above is indeed your fan, what this means is, the fan blades are equally poor in both directions. There is no such thing as a well designed, reversible blade. All well designed blades are "cupped" just like an aircraft wing, and are only efficient in ONE direction

Look at the mechanical fan you took off. It has a definite front and rear, and I can assure you that if you turn it around (rear of blade facing front) It will STILL pull some air through the radiator, but not nearly as much as when properly mounted.

One has to wonder if that fan can really move that much air.
Click to expand...


You need to re-read the description of the fan. The fan has an arrow on the shroud and only flows air in one direction. You do not reverse the blades. The fan is flat on both side, so if you want to mount it as a pusher you would mount it so the other side of the fan was against the front of the radiator with the arrow pointing into the radiator. If you want a puller you mount the other side of the fan to the radiator with the arrow pointing out from the radiator.

I hope that make sense.
 
sledger46 said:
You need to re-read the description of the fan. The fan has an arrow on the shroud and only flows air in one direction. You do not reverse the blades. The fan is flat on both side, so if you want to mount it as a pusher you would mount it so the other side of the fan was against the front of the radiator with the arrow pointing into the radiator. If you want a puller you mount the other side of the fan to the radiator with the arrow pointing out from the radiator.

I hope that make sense.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I could not access their webpage, and was going on what I found at summit. THAT makes a guy feel better. So you are saying the arrow on the ASSEMBLY remains pointing ahead no matter what?

You mean the housing is "flat" and not the blades?
 
67Dart273 said:
Unfortunately I could not access their webpage, and was going on what I found at summit. THAT makes a guy feel better. So you are saying the arrow on the ASSEMBLY remains pointing ahead no matter what?

You mean the housing is "flat" and not the blades?
Click to expand...


Correct. It is a totally enclosed fan case. The fan case is flat on both sides so you can mount it as a pusher or puller. The fan blades are a high flo - low noise design.
 
Tonight when I got home there was a box from Summit Racing waiting for me. Inside I found the new FlowKooler water pump and high flow thermostat. The Flowkooler pump not only has the disc to seal the impeller, but the disc also has additional vanes attached to it. You end up with a 16 vane impeller with a disc to seal the back side.
flowkooler2.jpg


I also ordered up a 180 degree, high flow thermostat made by Mr Gasket to replace my "custom" thermostat.

thermostats.jpg


I didn't get to finish the installation last night due to a problem I noticed. The "universal" lower radiator hose was rubbing on the K frame. Eventually it would have rubbed a hole in the hose. I will run to Autozone at lunch and see if I can get a hose that is one to two inches shorter. I should be able to complete the installation tonight and have some initial testing results tomorrow.
 
Just cut a bit off the radiator end and it'll pull away from the K member.
I did it with mine because it was touching.
 
TrailBeast said:
Just cut a bit off the radiator end and it'll pull away from the K member.
I did it with mine because it was touching.
Click to expand...


The "universal" hose is the accordian style with the wire inside and two ends. The ends are the only part of the hose big enough to fit onto the inlet of the water pump and the outlet of the radiator.

This picture will show you the lower radiator hose in question and the new replacement.
hoses.jpg
 
Well, the results are in...... and it is not good. Same problem only now the car stays hot once it gets hot. Seems like everything I have done so far has just made the problem(s) worse.


Any ideas?
 
I think you are going to get forced into a mechanical fan and a shroud.

Please, who made the radiator?

This thing doesn't push water out into the overflow does it?
It has already been brought up, but I didn't see an answer.

The problem seems to be airflow since it does it even worse at hiway speeds.

I have a two row core in mine and even when it gets up to 210 at a light, a block later it's back down to 190

Sure acts like an airflow problem.
I remember someone saying they had a radiator that had been over pressurized and it swelled the tubes.
He had the exact same symtoms.
(could yours have been used before with an engine with a blown headgasket?) and maybe returned?

I gotta ask, The fan blows toward the engine right?
 
I ran 2 14 inch fans and a new 26 inch champion radiator with no luck.Just go to track mostly.But still bothersome,Kevin.
 
Please, who made the radiator? Champion - new pulled it from the box last week.

This thing doesn't push water out into the overflow does it? Nope

Sure acts like an airflow problem. - I tend to agree. I feel I have addressed water flow with the new water pump and high flow thermostat, not to mention the brand new radiator.

The problem seems to be airflow since it does it even worse at hiway speeds. - I always heard once the car is traveling 45mph or so you don't need a fan.

(could yours have been used before with an engine with a blown headgasket?) and maybe returned? - it is always possible

I gotta ask, The fan blows toward the engine right? Yes sir - blows HOT air
 
Let me preface my reply / opinion by stating that I despise electric fans when they're used in-place of an engine-driven arrangement .

Here's my recommendation for what it's worth :

1.) 5-7 paddle viscous fan in the O.E.M. style (make certain to use a fan clutch . direct-drive fans are garbage , as are flex fans ) ;

2.) 185 - 195 degree t-stat ("fail safe" t-stats are available as well ) ;

3.) 16 lb. radiator cap ;

4.) Fan Shroud ;

5.) Distilled Water , mixed 50/50 with coolant ( do not use tap water unless the water where you reside is "soft" or filtred ) .

I've had good luck with Water Wetter (et al.) . It fills-in hot spots in the cooling passages ; definitely needed in a hot climate !

Distributor vacuum advance needs to be plumbed to the carb , typically at the Throttle Body's base .

A wider radiator is better than a thicker (more rows) radiator . A 26" rad will fit in your Dart's core support .

Good luck :glasses7:
 
""This thing doesn't push water out into the overflow does it? Nope""
It should transfer water in and out of the coolant resivoir. That's what the resivoir is for.
Like a 16 lb cap should release pressure above 16 lbs.
Is it possible that just any brand cap doesn't fit and operate properly on these aftermarket radiators ? If you stand on the cap with both feet to install it, it aint right.
 
I agreed that I had an airflow problem, so I dug through my old stuff and found a 7 blade paddle fan. I don't have a clutch and I don't have a spacer. As it is I barely have room to get my wrench in to tighten the bolts. I pulled the electric fan off and swapped on the 7 blade paddle fan. The fan sits about 2.5" back from the radiator. I don't have a shroud, but this should tell me if I am going in the right direction.

The temp outside was down to 80 F when I ran my test lap. The lap consists of street driving with some stop and go, a highway section about 3 miles long where I run 55- 60 MPH, and some slower sections with speeds down to 20 MPH.

Previously (with the electric fan) the car stayed below 185 until I hit the highway and then it climbed quickly up to 210+. It then held the 210 all the way back to the garage. It didn't cool down at all in the slow speed portion.

After bolting on the 7 blade paddle fan with no shroud, I fired up the car to find the temperature gauge already sitting on 185. I drove about 1.5 miles and jumped on the highway section. To my surprise the temperature held at 185. As long as the car was moving the temperature never got above 190 on the slow 20 MPH sections. At stop lights the temperature would climb to 195, but drop back down to 185 as soon as the car was moving.

I want to thank everyone for their input. Now I need to get a fan shroud. Where can I get a decent shroud for a 22" radiator at a decent price?
Thanks,
 
Get a sheet metal shop to fabricate a "box" the size you need. Then remove the fan, install the box, cutting a small clearance hole if necessary to get it in. Carefully measure for the center of the pump

Then just make a compass (two sheetrock screws or nails in a light board) so you can scribe the fan diameter + say, 1" clearance for the fan. If you had to cut a clearance hole, you can establish a center by screwing a scrap board across the inside of the hole.

There was a thread here recently someone made their own out of aluminum, pop - riveted the corners

HERE we go!!

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=198911&highlight=fan%2C+shroud%2C

The only improvement I would make in this project is to make an extended skirt, IE a circular add on around the fan. This is also easy to make. All you need is a strip of metal, which you can have the shop cut, long enough to go all the way around the opening. Some shops have a mechanical "notcher" which will make nice even tabs down one side. You bend 1/2 of them over, insert the skirt, and bend the other half of the tabs over. Then screw/ solder/ braze/ etc/ rivet the thing in place

I could not find a homebuilt one, but a skirt like this:

3447ibh_20.jpeg


You can buy hand operated notchers, or if you are patient, you can make them with snips

MALCO%20N2W.jpg
 
Sledger46 - You're heading in the right direction by adding that 7 paddle fan ; good call !
A shroud is an absolute necessity on a street-operated vehicle , as it directs air through the radiator (pulls it through) .
Sealing is of paramount importance as well , otherwise the drawn-through air will simply chose the path-of-least-resistance (e.g. , it'll flow everywhere *except* where it's supposed to .
2.5" of clearance between the fan's blades / clutch face , and the rad core , is good ; best = fan sticking 1/4 to 1/2 way out of the shroud's opening .

A clutch --really , a de-clutching device-- will save on power and be more economical , as it declutches the fan at expressway speeds ; and as the operating temps climb , its spring / silicone cause the fan to turn faster than engine speed .

I'd recommend utilising G05 coolant with that aluminum rad (does your Dart's engine have aluminum heads as well ? I don't remember ...) , as it's a "Mixed Metals" coolant . It's the stuff that Ford and Chrysler use as factory-fill .
NAPA has their equal ("generic") brand of G05 , if you're so inclined .

Best of luck ! :burnout:
 
sledger46 said:
I agreed that I had an airflow problem, so I dug through my old stuff and found a 7 blade paddle fan. I don't have a clutch and I don't have a spacer. As it is I barely have room to get my wrench in to tighten the bolts. I pulled the electric fan off and swapped on the 7 blade paddle fan. The fan sits about 2.5" back from the radiator. I don't have a shroud, but this should tell me if I am going in the right direction.

The temp outside was down to 80 F when I ran my test lap. The lap consists of street driving with some stop and go, a highway section about 3 miles long where I run 55- 60 MPH, and some slower sections with speeds down to 20 MPH.

Previously (with the electric fan) the car stayed below 185 until I hit the highway and then it climbed quickly up to 210+. It then held the 210 all the way back to the garage. It didn't cool down at all in the slow speed portion.

After bolting on the 7 blade paddle fan with no shroud, I fired up the car to find the temperature gauge already sitting on 185. I drove about 1.5 miles and jumped on the highway section. To my surprise the temperature held at 185. As long as the car was moving the temperature never got above 190 on the slow 20 MPH sections. At stop lights the temperature would climb to 195, but drop back down to 185 as soon as the car was moving.

I want to thank everyone for their input. Now I need to get a fan shroud. Where can I get a decent shroud for a 22" radiator at a decent price?
Thanks,
Click to expand...
Mancini Racing has some re-popped shrouds.

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/rafansh.html
 
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