73 Dart Alternator doesn't show charge anymore.

[SputnikOne]

Great idea, just didn't want to keep making a bajillion threads for my bajillion issues, but will do.

 

[SputnikOne]

Figured I'd give this thread a bump to see if I can get some further guidance with troubleshooting, I've had abit of issues with my electrical system since I replaced this alternator, granted I replaced the alternator before the wiring harness, but now I'm constantly chasing down electrical gremlins, sometimes it seems the alternator isn't providing enough charge, but at the same time after a cold start it'll sit on the +20 line on the ammeter for a good couple minutes, and from what I understand that's not healthy for the wiring. Today everything coming off of fuse 5 (running and parking lights, door buzzer, horn) stopped working, don't have a replacement fuse but I don't have an explanation for why the fuse may have blown in the first place.

I have a Retrosound radio I installed recently and it usually works fine, but sometimes after putting the vehicle into gear the radio will turn off as if it doesn't have enough power before turning back on once I start driving.

Could all this just be a bulkhead connector problem? All the engine bay side bits were replaced with the harness, but the connector itself is still the old one. The voltage regulator has also not been replaced yet, could also be the issue.

 

[Mattax]

Figured I'd give this thread a bump to see if I can get some further guidance with troubleshooting

Good luck

Could all this just be a bulkhead connector problem? All the engine bay side bits were replaced with the harness, but the connector itself is still the old one. The voltage regulator has also not been replaced yet, could also be the issue.

How would we know?
We suggested looking at and testing the condition of these circuits and connectors months ago in post 16 and 35. 73 Dart doesn't charge anymore.

I have a Retrosound radio I installed recently and it usually works fine, but sometimes after putting the vehicle into gear the radio will turn off as if it doesn't have enough power before turning back on once I start driving.

Would need a crystal ball to know how this has been wired in.

sometimes it seems the alternator isn't providing enough charge, but at the same time after a cold start it'll sit on the +20 line on the ammeter for a good couple minutes, and from what I understand that's not healthy for the wiring.

The battery only draws current to satisfy its need to recharge. No idea what you mean by doesn't draw enough. Did you check the voltages at key locations? Is the battery on its way out? Check the acid level or do a load test after a good slow charge.

Today everything coming off of fuse 5 (running and parking lights, door buzzer, horn) stopped working, don't have a replacement fuse but I don't have an explanation for why the fuse may have blown in the first place.

Fuses blow when they get overloaded. Overloaded is another way of saying too many electrons trying to move through. That could be a high draw item(s) or a short. A short to ground is a common cause. Good example to learn from
Turn signals not working, blowing fuse

 

[Dana67Dart]

My take on your post

Mattax is spot on but I'm reading between the lines.

sometimes it seems the alternator isn't providing enough charge, but at the same time after a cold start it'll sit on the +20 line on the ammeter for a good couple minutes, and from what I understand that's not healthy for the wiring

After starting the car the battery has a drain and recharges so it is normal to see the ALT indicator to be to the right of center for a while, a couple minutes seems reasonable. +20 line is probably not really 20A and a test with an amp meter will prove that.

Today everything coming off of fuse 5 (running and parking lights, door buzzer, horn) stopped working, don't have a replacement fuse but I don't have an explanation for why the fuse may have blown in the first place.

you have to do the detective work to track down the issue, a bare wire that moves while the car is moving can blow a fuse, as can bulbs that are higher current than stock OR maybe the new radio is being powered from that cir????

I have a Retrosound radio I installed recently and it usually works fine, but sometimes after putting the vehicle into gear the radio will turn off as if it doesn't have enough power before turning back on once I start driving.

There is lower voltage in the system when the car is in gear (lower engine RPM than in neutral or driving) and MAYBE the radio is more sensitive to voltage and electrical noise than the stock radio. ALSO as above maybe the installer messed up wires under the dash and they move and get disconnected under some conditions

Could all this just be a bulkhead connector problem? All the engine bay side bits were replaced with the harness, but the connector itself is still the old one.

the bulkhead connector is for sure a problem spot for out cars you replaced the engine side harness BUT the under dash side is OEM (I assume so the terminals / wires MIGHT be making poor connections. all the power to run the car goes through the Bulkhead connectors. inspect, clean and tighten the terminals

The voltage regulator has also not been replaced yet, could also be the issue.

If it is a electro mechanical type it can make electrical noise that can be an issue for modern electronics. There are electronic versions of older regulators if you are going to replace it I would replace it with one of that type. IF it is the 70 and up electronic VRs then they are all electronic

 

[SputnikOne]

Well I checked today while my car was at the shop and fuse 5 (everything that doesn't work) is fine and has 12 volts on both sides with the key in, but nothing works that comes off of it, puzzles me alittle.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Well I checked today while my car was at the shop and fuse 5 (everything that doesn't work) is fine and has 12 volts on both sides with the key in, but nothing works that comes off of it, puzzles me alittle

a volt meter have almost no load so it might read 12V but he moment you put a load on it it might drop to 0 or close to it. Turn something on and check again. Other possible issues is the down stream connectors might be disconnected

 

[SputnikOne]

I tested it with the door open so the key in buzzer should've taken a load, also tried with the running light switch on, but I got nothing, ammeter doesn't move at all with the switch pulled either, it powers the horn, buzzer, and all the running lights across the car, so I'm not sure what you mean by downstream connectors, unless they all somehow disconnected.

 

[Dana67Dart]

look at your wiring diagram. some fuses provide power some are inline with another power source. down stream means follow the wires from the fuse to their end. some circuits have a connector between the fuse and the device they power

 

[SputnikOne]

Yep, I checked the running lights and the tail lights and they're connected, unless those connectors come off of other connectors between them, I'll take a look.

 

[SputnikOne]

The lights and horn/buzzer come off of the fuse separately at the fuse (I assume that's what the splice off of the fuse is, I'm told this is factory) so I'm not sure what could be causing it, I even tested 12 volts on the terminal of the splice wire to ensure the power was going to the wire.

 

[Mattax]

OK. I've got a couple of ideas for testing.
You determined the fuse was not blown by checking the voltage on each end.
a. There could be voltage on the other side of a blown fuse if there is a cross wire short.
I'm going to say this is the least likely situation based on all we know.
b. There is a weak or open connection in the circuit. Could be the fuse clips and fuse.

A quick check of the power in is to turn on the dome light. It's fuse is also on the 'always hot' power feed. Stop lights and Hazards are also on that fuse. Those will all show draw on the ammeter when they light up.

It could be a as simple as poor contact between the fuse and the fuse clips. Remove the fuse and clean them up with somehting that doesnt remove the plating.

To check the circuit with the voltmeter, turn the parking lights on and measure the voltage on each side of the fuse. If there is a poor connection between the points of measurement when the circuit is there will be a big voltage difference as electrons struggle to move through. If both sides of the fuse remain at 12 Volts (assuming engine off), then check at the next connector downstream. In this case the B2 terminal of the headlight switch.

The junction at the fusebox is not a splice per se.
The two wires are joined together at the terminal.

 

[SputnikOne]

According to my service manual the dome lights come off of Fuse 4, but yes, they all work, just everything on fuse 5 that's the issue.

What I mean by splice is on my car there's a red wire that's spliced into the fuse, which I was told was also from factory on some cars, not sure what it was used for.

I don't have fuse pullers handy right now, but I'll do the check you recommended in abit.

 

[Mattax]

which I was told was also from factory on some cars

I hope you can see they are incorrect, wrong, and dead wrong.
View any other facts from them as suspect and unreliable.
This may be the most important thing to learn.
Don't take my word for it. Look at the factory examples - plenty photos posted here - look at the terminals and connectors in the factory parts book and service manuals. Look at how the factory wrapped and supported their wires. Look at how the factory recommended making splice repairs. You be the Judge.

Fuse puller. Yes they do make it easier to remove.

According to my service manual the dome lights come off of Fuse 4, but yes, they all work, just everything on fuse 5 that's the issue.

Exactly. So what does that tell us?
We can use this photo as a visual reference

If items on circuits using fuse 4 work, then the problem is not in the feed to the fusebox.
The problem must be at the fuse or downstream from that fuse.

 

[SputnikOne]

Okay, sounds good, you said the next connection (that's not the fuse) would be the headlight switch right? The drawing I have shows that it splits at the fuse and goes to both the headlight switch and the horn relay, and I wouldn't expect them to both of gone bad at the same time, but I supposed anything's possible with this electrical system.

 

[Mattax]

Can you see the photo I posted?

 

[SputnikOne]

Yes, I see the two wires are connected at the terminal, so I would assume it's possible the terminal could be the issue, I'll take a look at the back of my fuse box on my car once I get some free time.

 

[Mattax]

Yes, I see the two wires are connected at the terminal, so I would assume it's possible the terminal could be the issue, I'll take a look at the back of my fuse box on my car once I get some free time.

Yes it could be a problem where the wires are crimped but more likely the fuse contact with one or both of the clips. My point was that crimp is the junction where each branch splits from the fuse.

To me the fuse clips are easier to access and more likely location for a problem effecting both the H1 and X1 circuits. Whether you investigate it visually and physically or by measuring voltage drop is up to you. It prob should be cleaned anyway so I would remove the fuse.

Headlight switch is a pain to access. The only advantage is you can turn on the parking lights and leave them on versus blowing the horn. If the horn relay is easy to access, then clip or backprobe the power connection and blow the horn while watching the voltmeter.

 

[Dana67Dart]

What I mean by splice is on my car there's a red wire that's spliced into the fuse, which I was told was also from factory on some cars, not sure what it was used for.

The wire is NOT factory in any way.

OEM wires will not say "primary wire" on it and the blue crimp connector is not used on OEM wiring harness. Lastly, taps on fuses are not used.

 

[SputnikOne]

Strange, I'll have to find what's it's for then, the previous owner was in he middle of a radio install so that might've been his power wire, as there's nothing else that's aftermarket I've seen inside the car.

 

[Mattax]

I know what it is. It's a hazard. ;)
Also likely a contributor to why things on 5 don't work

 

[Dana67Dart]

, I'll have to find what's it's for then

Disconnect it and see what doesn't work

 

[SputnikOne]

Got around to some more troubleshooting, couple I retesting results.

First off, the red primary wire goes to this metal thing under the steering collum, not entirely sure what this component is for.

Secondly, I took the voltmeter to fuse 5 again, confirmed 12V on the output to a dash screw ground, then I turned the headlight switch on for the running lights and checked again and there was no voltage.

Seems like what you said earlier, there's no power going through when there is a load applied. I assume this means the fuse is bad then?

Lastly, and most confusing to me, I decided to test the same thing but with the horn relay so I went to insert the key to enable the door buzzer as the door was open already, and as soon as the key went in, the car lost all power.

The dome lamp went out, as did the oil pressure light, and the fuses had no power anymore on either side.

This has happened before but usually only after I turn it off after driving for awhile and it sits for abit, and then it has no power when I come back to it later, before it comes back usually after a few hours.

Any ideas? I don't know what besides the fusible link would cause the power to be cutting, and the fusible link wouldn't un-fuse after alittle time, could it be related to the fuse?

 

[Mattax]

I'd get rid of thatred wire. Could be a short

More likely a bad connection or wire. Doesn't sound like you watched the ammeter.

Assuming this was all with engine off as it sounds like, then I suspect the battery feed.

Check for voltage drop sequentially starting at the battery.
Turn on something. Dome light is fine. Monitor the ammeter so you know how much current its pulling.
Measure voltage at the battery and at the alternator (the alternator wire is simply acting as a probe to the main splice).

If there is a voltage drop, then its in the battery feed line. Look for votlage difference at each junction along the way to the main splice.

Voltage differece = amps x resistance.
Thats why you need to know the amps.
No amps, no voltage drop even with high resistance
Higher amps, the voltage drop will be higher for the same resistance. Good luck. I wont be around today.

 

[Dana67Dart]

First off, the red primary wire goes to this metal thing under the steering collum, not entirely sure what this component is for

If this is related to the photo in your post 1 the photo shows the brake light switch.

It has constant 12v and goes into a normally open switch, when you press on the brake pedal the normally open switch closes and sends power to the brake lights.

 

[SputnikOne]

Hey again, went to the parts store to grab some new spark plugs, and again there was no power after parking and coming back to the car, started looking around and found an exposed bit from one of the red wires coming off of the battery to the relay, there's no drop between the relay and the battery terminal so I don't personally think it would cause the power to cut intermittently but it is definitely something I'm going to be fixing or replacing soon.