8 3/4 pinion shim question

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Map63Vette

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So I'm rebuilding my 8 3/4 center section since there was a lot of slop in it and some in and out movement on the pinion. However, now that I have the new bearing and shim kit I ran into a bit of a head scratcher. I ground down the inside of the old inner pinion bearing so I could slip fit it and figure out the pinion depth. However, I figured if the old bearing was a different height because of wear it would be set up wrong when I press the new bearing on.

My question is this, the pinion depth seems about right with a .040" shim on the old bearing, but the new bearing is right around .010" taller than the old one. I only got .020", .025", and .040" shims in my rebuild kit. Should I run the .040" shim on the new bearing and expect it to wear in or should I run the .025" because of the taller new bearing?
 
If you are using the same gear set and case, technically you should be re-using the shims that you took out.

Generally there should be a number on the pinion for what the target pinion depth should be. The difference between the actual depth and the target depth is the shim thickness.

Ultimately though, you will use checking compound to make sure you have it right.

Hope that helps.
 
............R u using the same set of gears.........if so u just use the 1 over that was under the pinion gearing...........u dont need to reset the pinion depth..........also use the same shims to set the pinion bearing preload........if too tight need a thicker shim, if to loose u need a thinner shim.................kim........
 
I am reusing the same gears, but I think this rear end has been taken apart at some point. There was no shim under the inner bearing, so I don't have anything to reuse, and it looked like the only shim that used to be in it was on the front side and it broke, because I took it out in pieces. I used marking compound with the old bearing and it looked like it was too shallow without any shims, hence the .040" to get it right, but I didn't know if the new bearing would compress some to the old bearing dimensions once it had been run for a bit or if the old bearing had been really abused and should never have compressed like that to begin with.
 
Do you have a tool to set pinion depth? There's really no other way to accurately check it. Without the tool, you're just guessing. Kinda sounds like you may not have one?

If there were no shims in there to begin with then yes, it was probably apart before and assembled incorrectly. There is an outside chance that shims may not have been necessary but that's not likely.

Basically, if you're starting from scratch, you need to measure pinion depth.

And again, there should be a number either marked/scribed etc. on the gears somewhere which should be your target depth.

Let us know how it turns out.
 
I have a dial indicator and base, but I've just been going off of gear marking compound right now. My main question is which way should I set the pinion (deeper or shallower) because the two bearings are different heights, so when I check depth with one it won't be the same for the other. I don't want to keep trying to press the new one on and off because I don't want to tear it up, but using an old on for measuring won't get me the same numbers.
 
I have a micrometer, but I've just been going off of gear marking compound right now. My main question is which way should I set the pinion (deeper or shallower) because the two bearings are different heights, so when I check depth with one it won't be the same for the other. I don't want to keep trying to press the new one on and off because I don't want to tear it up, but using an old on for measuring won't get me the same numbers.

You're not going to get an accurate measurement doing it that way! No way, no how. The pinion depth is the relationship of the gears to the case, the bearings really should not come in to play in regards to that measurement.

Again, can you see if there is a marking for target depth? Measuring shims with a mic accomplishes nothing if you do not have a final target depth to shoot for.

If your bearings are different heights, then you may not have the correct one for your application. The later 489 cases use a crush sleeve to set preload, there may be a difference in spec between the 489 and 742 case bearings but I am not totally sure on that.
 
Here is a pretty clear explanation of what you are trying to achieve. Not Mopar but the idea is the same.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Drivetrain/Rear_End/Page_2.php

Here is the tool you need to get to do this correctly:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-900021/

There are 'better' (more expensive ones) that install where the adjusters are when the caps are on like this one:

http://www.markwilliams.com/detail.aspx?ID=1405

I have the cheap one but never used it because it's a universal deal and is clumsy. I took the plunge and got the MW one. It's a beautiful piece and makes the job easier.
 
The math of my situation so far is this. With the old bearing installed and a .040" shim, the marking compound shows a good pattern. However, the new bearing is .010" taller than the old bearing when I measure them with a caliper, so it would move the pinion further toward the back of the case (more into the gears). The only shims I got in my kit are .040", .025", and .020". If I use the .040" shim on the new bearing, the pinion will be .010" too far out, but if I use the .025" with the new bearing the pinion will be .005" too far in. I don't have a shim available to make up the exact difference in bearing heights. I checked the numbers and they are the exact same bearings, one is just old and probably worn out. My question is would it be better to shim the pinion too deep and expect the new bearing to compress some with use, or set it shallower and figure it will take a lot of time for the new bearing to wear that much?

And sorry, I edited my other post too late. I have a dial indicator and mag base, but I can't make any sense of the numbers on the pinion. It has the gear ratio and a bunch of other numbers on it, but nothing that seems like a measurement.
 
I remic'd the bearings and the difference is more like .005". The deal is that the cage on the new one sticks up just a little past the inner race, so when placed in an outer race, the bearing appears slightly taller. I figure with use and loading the cage and rollers will settle in slightly and be closer to the dimensions of the old bearing, but I didn't know how long that might take. I could try to shim the new set to make up for the initial difference, but if the new bearing is going to settle in a few hundred miles, it would be off and I'd be better off setting it up for it's "worn in" state to match the old bearing. If it would take more like 50,000 miles, I would want to make up the difference on the initial install.
 
First off, if your gears have been run any length of time with bad (read sloppy) pinion bearings, it's likely the gear set is bad too. If they get a weird wear pattern on them, they don't get better with use. But if yours is the rare exception that didn't get damaged, you're going to have to start from scratch with the pinion depth like rmchrgr said. If you need inbetween shims, I'd just mill off a little of a thick one to get the correct thickness. .005 should be easy.....400 grit sand paper on a dead flat countertop would do it in seconds. Just press evenly to keep the thickness even.
 
I do not believe you thinking about this correctly. The bearing and its cage should be the same dimensions or it is NOT RIGHT, part numbers the same or not. Did you install the new races all the way in? Sometimes they can be tricky to seat all the way. It pays to have a good driver set to make sure they are not cocked and sit all the way against the machined surface.

Also, bearings do not shrink,compress or 'wear in' over time, or at least they should not. Sometimes I give the pinion a couple short whacks to seat it properly but that has nothing to do with setting pinion depth, only tightening the pinion nut when setting preload. Again, when pinion bearings wear, the rollers get scuffed up. The cage does not weaken or compress unless there is a catastrophic failure. Usually what happens is that a pinion seal leaks and the fluid gets low, uncovering part of the bearing. You can guess the rest.

Also, there is no 'wear in' type of thing going on here. You probably don't want to tow a trailer with a bulldozer on it right after you do a rear end but generally there is no 'time' consideration, only surface imperfections that can cause noise or some other mechanical failure. Pinion bearing preload and backlash are the measurements that compensate for differences in machining tolerance and driveline shock. Gear oil is the cushion between the surfaces. If you were compensating for 'wear in' then you would keep having to re shim the thing every time it shifted a little.

The pinion depth is either correct as evidenced by the checking compound or its not. If it's not, it will have to be taken apart and shimmed accordingly, either towards or away from the center line. You will have to determine how perfect you want to make it. If it's out either way, it will probably be noisy. There are shim kits available from all the major driveline vendors that have more finite variations than what came in your kit.

And again, even if you have a dial indicator and stand, where is your reference point in regards to the case? You need to find the exact centerline before you can make any type of determination on whether the pinion should move in or out. I don't know, maybe you can make it work like you are describing, but I do not believe it can be done without a lot of trial and error.

When I have done them at work, generally the only things that get changed are the bearings, (like you are trying to do) and we always reuse the shims so we don't have to measure for pinion depth. Sometimes I even reuse the crush sleeve so I don't have to kill myself trying to set pinion bearing preload. I can say for sure that I have NEVER seen a replacement bearing that did not match exactly the one I was replacing. I have had the experience where I installed one that 'looked' correct but ultimately was not. I kept trying to make it work thinking it was right but it was different just enough to throw everything off. I had to taske the whole thing apart and re-do it. Not fun!

But hey, I could be wrong on all of this or possibly misunderstanding what you are trying to accomplish. Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not an expert at all. I think though, that your have some misconceptions on some key elements of setting up a diff. Mainly though, you need the correct tools to do the job right or you are just guessing. I hope you can make it work without the tools but you would not be asking the same type of questions if you had them, it would be evident.

Sorry for the tone, just trying to help steer you in the right direction. It's not an easy thing to do, I've screwed a few up and it's not pretty. The tools will make it easier to 'see' what is going on.
 
Maybe I should explain a little better too. I appreciate the help and just want to make sure that I'm trying to explain it well enough to visualize it the way I'm doing. I took a set of calipers and squeezed from the base of the inner race on the new bearing to the top side of the race. When you hold the two bearings side by side you can see that the cage that holds the rollers of one bearing sits just barely a little taller than the other, so when you try to measure the height of the inner race, you can't quite because the cage gets in the way of the calipers. On the old bearing the cage is just about the same height at the top of the race, so I figure the rollers or race on the old bearing had just slightly compressed or settled over time and wear, leading to the difference in dimensions. I'm fairly sure the actual height of the race is the same on both pieces, it's just the cage on the one gets in the way a tiny bit when trying to measure.

I went ahead and pressed the new bearing on anyway with the bigger shim and checked the pattern to be sure and it looks okay. The gears are still a little noisy since I'm sure they've worn funny over the years, but they seem to work fine. I'll probably replace them down the road, but I'm not putting any kind of crazy power to them anyway. I need to replace the housing and axles at some point, so I may just replace the gears at the same time.
 
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