8 3/4 ring gear change for optimum low end performance

-

67dartgtgo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
1,598
Reaction score
1,077
Location
Mass
2 years ago I swapped out my 727 for a 46RH transmission with a stock 5.9 magnum higher stall converter. I'm not sure what the exact stall is but the transmission came out of a 95 dakota with a 5.9 magnum. The converter is blue with a HS sticker on it and this is the only way I could know its high stall. It has a TF2 shift kit in it.
The engine is a 1998 5.9 mopar performance crate 300hp magnum with a 214/218* @ .50", .532/.539 lift cam, stock iron heads, eddy air gap and good breathing exhaust manifolds from treblig back when he was doing milled manifold work, dual 2 1/2" exhaust with an H pipe. Maybe around 350hp on the high rpm end. The rear end is an 8 3/4 truetrac geared with 3.55's. 27" tall tires. It runs great and I'm very happy with it's highway performance in overdrive and lock-up but I'm wondering how much I'm leaving on the table for low end torque. The rpm's at 65 in lock-up run at 1900. I'm thinking there's plenty of room for deeper gears but need some help finding what might be optimum for my application.
Any help is soo appreciated. I love it here and you guys are my go to when I can't find it in a search.
 
Last edited:
If optimum low end is wanted that’s great, but we need to know what top end cruise rpm you want.
And how tall are the rear tires? That goes right along with gear ratio.

4.88 would be great for low end! But you mention freeway Driving and that would compromise that.
 
Thanks 413. 27" tall tires...fixed above...yes some freeway driving and would like to keep those rpm's reasonable. The 727 I had in previously ran about 3200 rpm's at 65mph if I remember correctly. Higher than I'd like to be.
 
2 years ago I swapped out my 727 for a 46RH transmission with a stock 5.9 magnum higher stall converter. I'm not sure what the exact stall is but the transmission came out of a 95 dakota with a 5.9 magnum. The converter is blue with a HS sticker on it and this is the only way I could know its high stall. It has a TF2 shift kit in it.
The engine is a 1998 5.9 mopar performance crate 300hp magnum with a 214/218* @ .50", .532/.539 lift cam, stock iron heads, eddy air gap and good breathing exhaust manifolds from treblig back when he was doing milled manifold work, dual 2 1/2" exhaust with an H pipe. Maybe around 350hp on the high rpm end. The rear end is an 8 3/4 truetrac geared with 3.55's. 27" tall tires. It runs great and I'm very happy with it's highway performance in overdrive and lock-up but I'm wondering how much I'm leaving on the table for low end torque. The rpm's at 65 in lock-up run at 1500. I'm thinking there's plenty of room for deeper gears but need some help finding what might be optimum for my application.
Any help is soo appreciated. I love it here and you guys are my go to when I can't find it in a search.
I'd say what you have is damn near perfect. You could switch to a upper 3.0 ratio or a 4.10 but at what cost and what gain? Can you spin the tires from a stop now?
 
I'd say what you have is damn near perfect. You could switch to a upper 3.0 ratio or a 4.10 but at what cost and what gain? Can you spin the tires from a stop now?
They spin pretty good but could always use more low end torque if I'm not sacrificing too much lock-up rpm....lol.
I
 
They spin pretty good but could always use more low end torque if I'm not sacrificing too much lock-up rpm....lol.
I
If you already "spin pretty good" going up in ratio will just aggravate that.
 
2 years ago I swapped out my 727 for a 46RH transmission with a stock 5.9 magnum higher stall converter. I'm not sure what the exact stall is but the transmission came out of a 95 dakota with a 5.9 magnum. The converter is blue with a HS sticker on it and this is the only way I could know its high stall. It has a TF2 shift kit in it.
The engine is a 1998 5.9 mopar performance crate 300hp magnum with a 214/218* @ .50", .532/.539 lift cam, stock iron heads, eddy air gap and good breathing exhaust manifolds from treblig back when he was doing milled manifold work, dual 2 1/2" exhaust with an H pipe. Maybe around 350hp on the high rpm end. The rear end is an 8 3/4 truetrac geared with 3.55's. 27" tall tires. It runs great and I'm very happy with it's highway performance in overdrive and lock-up but I'm wondering how much I'm leaving on the table for low end torque. The rpm's at 65 in lock-up run at 1900. I'm thinking there's plenty of room for deeper gears but need some help finding what might be optimum for my application.
Any help is soo appreciated. I love it here and you guys are my go to when I can't find it in a search.


What's the most your willing to turn on the highway and go with the gear set that will turn that rpm.
 
What's the most your willing to turn on the highway and go with the gear set that will turn that rpm.
Yep...that's what I was thinking after using the calculator. There's not much difference between 3.91 and 4.10's.
 
Yep...that's what I was thinking after using the calculator. There's not much difference between 3.91 and 4.10's.

I'd go with the 4.10 then you should feel the .5 deeper gear forsure.
 
If you are really at 1500 at 65, and are willing to run 2000, thats 33% more than your current 3.55. That works out to 4.72. I seriously doubt i would go that far.
In my opinion, going from 3.55 to 3.73 wouldnt be worth the expense, and i wouldnt go all the way to 4.56, so..... chose between 3.91 and 4.11.
 
And 4.10 would probably work well if you ever decide to take her to the 1/4 mile, 1/8 mile you could even go deeper.
 
4.10 or 4.30. I'd go with the 4.30 and you still would have a 3.0 for highway with the o.d.
 
I have 4.10 with the 340, 42RH and a 2800 rpm stall. It's fun to drive on the street for sure. My OD solenoid is acting up, so I haven't got to test actual rpm on the highway.
 
They spin pretty good but could always use more low end torque if I'm not sacrificing too much lock-up rpm....lol.
I
Here's something that you can't calculate.
Firstly; consider
If you already "spin pretty good" going up in ratio will just aggravate that.

But I think I get what yur saying.
When you whack it open from Zero mph, it spins and goes.
But when yur tooling around and already moving, it seems sluggish; is that it?

If yes, then you have GOT to figure out your flash-stall. Here's why;
consider this graph;notice it is for a 5.2Magnum
power-318-gif.gif

Of course your 5.9 will be different but you get the idea.
So with this 5.2;
Suppose you have 3.55s and
the 46RH has ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00-.69od. and
27" tires have a roll-out of 84.8".
So whatever is coming out of the flywheel, by the time it gets to the road, it is being multiplied by 2.45 x 3.55=8.70.
Now, study the torque line on this graph.
Say you had this engine with a 1600 stall. The torque at 1600 is say 264, so 264 x 8.70=2300ftlbs to the rear axles(ignoring losses.)
Now go look at the torque at 2800. I see about 292, so 292 x8.70=2540 an improvement of 10.56%.
But this does not tell the whole story; go look at the power difference; 80@1600 versus 155@2800, which is nearly double! You cannot touch this with gears.

Now lets see how this plays out on the road. Lets say you are cruising around at 32mph, in second gear. With 3.55s your tach will be reading around 2140@4% slip. You get the urge to speed up. With a 2200 stall, the TC will spool up to 2200rpm. At 2200 on the graph, it looks like about 107hp. But if you had a 2800, the power there is 155ish, an increase of ~45%. And we haven't even downshifted yet.
Now remember this number, plus 45%

Ok now, lets dump those 3.55s and install 3.91s. I like 3.91s because 4600 in Second is about 60mph (@10% slip) .So second gear is almost all used up power-wise.
At 32mph now your rpm in second will be 2350@4% slip. When you step on it, the rpm might spool up to 2600@10%slip.. On the graph this is~140 hp. But your cruise rpm has jumped from 65=1980 (by the math) in loc-up, to 65=2180, so

As to hiway fuel economy; the general opinion is that any change in rpm, when expressed as a percentage will be double the loss in mileage. So from 1980 to 2180 is a increase of 10.4%, so you can expect a decrease in fuel economy of 5.2%.. If yur getting 18 now, then you can expect a loss of .94 mpg on the hiway, now down to 17.1

Which way you do it is up to you; but I would go stall..... because
1) you have a loc-up, and
2) because of what happens on the gear change at light throttle. Suppose you had 2000TC. Suppose you are just driving around, and stop at a stoplight. When you take off easy, you might be looking at a 3000 rpm shift.. On the 1-2 shift at 3000, mathematically the Rs would fall to 1800.
But with the 2000TC slipping your tach could be reading, well, 2000/ and up to 100hp is available.
But with a 2800, then, up to 155hp is available ................. Oh yeah!


Now, to be fair, I don't think you can give your engine the timing it wants with that small cam, at 65= 1900.. But by 2200 yur getting close, and I do think that by 2400, you can. I cruse at 2240 and my engine likes 60*; however, I can only give her 57, and it hardly makes a difference. So Ima thinking 65=2200 is about the lowest rpm I would cruise that engine. And that would be 3.91s again

Now; if you were to combine those 3.91s with a 2800, that would be a heckuva thing.
Again cruising at 32 mph, the rpm will be close to 2350 in second gear,at 4% slip. Dialing in throttle, the Rs will rise to 2800, with up to 155 hp available (to the 5.2Magnum), per the graph. If you need more, the KD would provide 32 mph @4200@10% slip and looks like 225hp....... but don't get too excited; 4200 is close to redline with this 5.2, so altho it downshifts and blasts off, this is shortlived .
But your 5.9, with the 214* cam will power peak near 4600, so you might outshift first gear at 5000, and with 3.91s that would be 38mph. So then you would only be in first for maybe a second. On the 1-2 shift at 5000, the Rs would fall to 2950 mathematically, but with the 2800 and slipping 10% your tach might be saying 3250 in second. Second gear is good to 5000=65mph at 10% slip; the third reason to use 3.91s.

If you can only afford one of these, I highly recommend a minimum 2800TC. It will put a super big smile on your face every time you take off, and at every low-rpm shift, that would normally fall to say 2200 or less.
After the 2800 is in, the 3.55s should be fine for a very long time.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it,lol.

BTW
I have run the 2800 with every rear gear from 2.76 to 3.55, plus some others, behind a Smoggerteen that was stock except for a 4bbl and headers. I liked every one of those; but believe it or not, I liked the 2.76s best. Not for acceleration obviously, but for the fact that;
when I nailed it, the Rs spooled to 2800, then sorta hung there all the way to 65mph, with the Thermoquad moaning the whole way,lol. With this combo, 65 was about 2400, no loc-up.

Oh yeah one more thing; the starter gear with 3.91s is; 3.91 x 2.45=9.58..
At 2800, this is putting down about 292 (on the 5.2 graph), so
292 x9.58=2798 ftlbs into the rear axles. For an automatic trans, that is a very big number, and guarantees a lotta lotta tirespin.
Compare that to the current say at 2200 stall
3.55 x 2.45 x say 280 ftlbs (still on the graph) =2435. That is an increase of 14.9% in max torque available.
But again, look at the horsepower difference; say 120 to 155 equals 29.2%.

Now I'm just guessing at your stall being around 2200.
If you have a higher stall, then the gains will be smaller.
And I sure wouldn't pull a 2600 out for a 2800, no way.
But with a lock-up, there is no reason to just go 2800,lol.
 
Last edited:
Here's something that you can't calculate.
Firstly; consider


But I think I get what yur saying.
When you whack it open from Zero mph, it spins and goes.
But when yur tooling around and already moving, it seems sluggish; is that it?

If yes, then you have GOT to figure out your flash-stall. Here's why;
consider this graph;notice it is for a 5.2Magnum
View attachment 1715781293
Of course your 5.9 will be different but you get the idea.
So with this 5.2;
Suppose you have 3.55s and
the 46RH has ratios of 2.45-1.45-1.00-.69od. and
27" tires have a roll-out of 84.8".
So whatever is coming out of the flywheel, by the time it gets to the road, it is being multiplied by 2.45 x 3.55=8.70.
Now, study the torque line on this graph.
Say you had this engine with a 1600 stall. The torque at 1600 is say 264, so 264 x 8.70=2300ftlbs to the rear axles(ignoring losses.)
Now go look at the torque at 2800. I see about 292, so 292 x8.70=2540 an improvement of 10.56%.
But this does not tell the whole story; go look at the power difference; 80@1600 versus 155@2800, which is nearly double! You cannot touch this with gears.

Now lets see how this plays out on the road. Lets say you are cruising around at 32mph, in second gear. With 3.55s your tach will be reading around 2140@4% slip. You get the urge to speed up. With a 2000 stall, the TC will spool up to say 10% slip, so 2200rpm. At 2200 on the graph, it looks like about 107hp. But if you had a 2800, the power there is 155ish, an increase of ~45%. And we haven't even downshifted yet.
Now remember this number, plus 45%

Ok now, lets dump those 3.55s and install 3.91s. I like 3.91s because 4600 in Second is about 60mph (@10% slip) .So second gear is almost all used up power-wise.
At 32mph now your rpm in second will be 2350@4% slip. When you step on it, the rpm might spool up to 2600@10%slip.. On the graph this is~140 hp. But your cruise rpm has jumped from 65=1980 (by the math) in loc-up, to 65=2180, so

As to hiway fuel economy; the general opinion is that any change in rpm, when expressed as a percentage will be double the loss in mileage. So from 1980 to 2180 is a increase of 10.4%, so you can expect a decrease in fuel economy of 5.2%.. If yur getting 18 now, then you can expect a loss of .94 mpg on the hiway, now down to 17.1

Which way you do it is up to you; but I would go stall..... because
1) you have a loc-up, and
2) because of what happens on the gear change at light throttle. Suppose you had 2000TC. Suppose you are just driving around, and stop at a stoplight. When you take off easy, you might be looking at a 3000 rpm shift.. On the 1-2 shift at 3000, mathematically the Rs would fall to 1800.
But with the 2000TC slipping your tach could be reading, well, 2000/ and up to 100hp is available.
But with a 2800, then, up to 155hp is available ................. Oh yeah!


Now, to be fair, I don't think you can give your engine the timing it wants with that small cam, at 65= 1900.. But by 2200 yur getting close, and I do think that by 2400, you can. I cruse at 2240 and my engine likes 60*; however, I can only give her 57, and it hardly makes a difference. So Ima thinking 65=2200 is about the lowest rpm I would cruise that engine. And that would be 3.91s again

Now; if you were to combine those 3.91s with a 2800, that would be a heckuva thing.
Again cruising at 32 mph, the rpm will be close to 2350 in second gear,at 4% slip. Dialing in throttle, the Rs will rise to 2800, with up to 155 hp available (to the 5.2Magnum), per the graph. If you need more, the KD would provide 32 mph @4200@10% slip and looks like 225hp....... but don't get too excited; 4200 is close to redline with this 5.2, so altho it downshifts and blasts off, this is shortlived .
But your 5.9, with the 214* cam will power peak near 4600, so you might outshift first gear at 5000, and with 3.91s that would be 38mph. So then you would only be in first for maybe a second. On the 1-2 shift at 5000, the Rs would fall to 2950 mathematically, but with the 2800 and slipping 10% your tach might be saying 3250 in second. Second gear is good to 5000=65mph at 10% slip; the third reason to use 3.91s.

If you can only afford one of these, I highly recommend a minimum 2800TC. It will put a super big smile on your face every time you take off, and at every low-rpm shift, that would normally fall to say 2200 or less.
After the 2800 is in, the 3.55s should be fine for a very long time.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it,lol.

BTW
I have run the 2800 with every rear gear from 2.76 to 3.55, plus some others, behind a Smoggerteen that was stock except for a 4bbl and headers. I liked every one of those; but believe it or not, I liked the 2.76s best. Not for acceleration obviously, but for the fact that;
when I nailed it, the Rs spooled to 2800, then sorta hung there all the way to 65mph, with the Thermoquad moaning the whole way,lol. With this combo, 65 was about 2400, no loc-up.

Oh yeah one more thing; the starter gear with 3.91s is; 3.91 x 2.45=9.58..
At 2800, this is putting down about 292 (on the 5.2 graph), so
292 x9.58=2798 ftlbs into the rear axles. For an automatic trans, that is a very big number, and guarantees a lotta lotta tirespin.
Compare that to the current say at 2200 stall
3.55 x 2.45 x say 280 ftlbs (still on the graph) =2435. That is an increase of 14.9% in max torque available.
But again, look at the horsepower difference; say 120 to 155 equals 29.2%.

Now I'm just guessing at your stall being around 2200.
If you have a higher stall, then the gains will be smaller.
And I sure wouldn't pull a 2600 out for a 2800, no way.
But with a lock-up, there is no reason to just go 2800,lol.
AJ.....I was hoping you’d jump in on this. This is exactly the info I need to be able to make an informed decision. Tytyty. All kinds of food for thought.
 
You’re right AJ....I just reread it three times and can’t find where you made the edit but I’ll be figuring out my flash stall tomorrow if the weather stays good. Do you think I should consider a 3000 stall if I stay with the 3.55’s until the budget allows for steeper rear gears? Having the lock-up and all.
 
Do you think I should consider a 3000 stall if I stay with the 3.55’s until the budget allows for steeper rear gears? Having the lock-up and all.
Boy, I hesitate to say one way or another until you actually know what you have.
And before that even, I would do a compression test.
 
Did a stall test today and it looks like a 2000 stall converter. The tach showed about 1950 when wheel spin occurred so I guess it could be a 1900 stall but I'm not sure there's such a thing.
 
Brake stall or flash stall?
Ima guessing flash-stall, and didn't you say the convertor had an HS sticker?.
that sucks
that really sucks.
Is the lock-up engaged or mechanically stuck, I wonder.

I have a 367LA in my 68 Barracuda with 3.55s.
At one time , maybe I mentioned this, I had a 223/110 cam in her, and she spun two gears all the way thru with no help from a TC cuz she's an A833 4-speed,lol. That's 70 mph on 245/60-14s. The 295/50-15s spun nearly as far.
This combo went 12.9 in the qtr at 3650 pounds, which translates to about 330hp. That's pretty close to your combo right? Well except your car is way lighter.
So what's the scoop,how's your convertor doing with rpm.
 
Last edited:
-
Back
Top