A 440 A-Body... that can handle?

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With the efi you may see a few mpg but not a ton. No power increase unless the previous carb was way out of tune. Where you see the difference is the drive ability.
 
What kind of mileage have you guys seen? I can't see it being any worse than my 87 RAM with a 2 barrel 318 (about 10).
 
With a mild cam, 3.23 gears and a four speed we managed around 15mpg in my old Dart hardtop. That was also with an old AVS not fully tuned. I think the same combo is capable of near 20mpg on the highway with the proper parts...
 
Jim Lusk said:
With a mild cam, 3.23 gears and a four speed we managed around 15mpg in my old Dart hardtop. That was also with an old AVS not fully tuned. I think the same combo is capable of near 20mpg on the highway with the proper parts...
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i had a 4-speed manual 4door dart big heavy son of a gun all iron 340 9:1 compression rally wheels with a .551 lift solid cam and a thermoquad that consistently got 19mpg highway

with lighter wheels and engine parts i probably could have gotten 20mpg
 
good to hear some positive scenerio MPG numbers. I get about 25-30 in my '03 impala right now, so I know making a 440 a daily/ occasional will KILL that number, but it's nice to hear it in the upper teens.

Any specific brand cam you guys recommend? How about other valve-train components? I'll need it all... I've been told to use Crane cams, Comp Cams, and a dozen brands... which do YOU guys think is best for a moderate street build? I, like many other muscle heads, like the sound of a nice high lift through a throaty exhaust, but being a tad conservative, what do you have in mind?
 
Nitrocide595 said:
as usual, more AWESOME info from you guys!

Just a little fuel for the discussion, I was talking to my friend today, one who is always making "slowpar" jokes and whatever.... she's got an '03 Mustang Terminator Cobra, and being supercharged, it kicks out about 500HP I believe. now, I know pushing a 440 to get 500 HP on a low budget AND keeping it streetable is just nonsense, SO I don't want to beat her on the numbers... but if I can get a mopar to handle with a big block, like we've been discussing, then THAT will be something to brag about and whatever.

Just thought that was worth mentioning :p
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Tell her to stop comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a naturally aspirated v8 to a supercharged one really isnt a fair comparison. I go thru this with the fast n furious ID10Ts all the time. Dont even bother anymore. A twin turbo 440 mopar on a light weight diet in a well sorted handling chassis with good rubber could terminate the terminator, if you could actually get the rear end to hook up.
 
just what I wanted to hear!

I've been thinking some more about this stuff and project wise, what I want to do. I actually know this guy a lot of people in the Mopar community know of, Mike Musto. He's got the Charger Daytona autocross/rally car. He and his friends set out to make a B Body handle, so I have faith that you really CAN make ANYTHING handle if you really want it...


EDIT: Took out a dumb idea I gave more thought to, but came up with a better question:
Parts needed for the 440:

Intake Manifold

Valvetrain and cam: I was looking in Jegs today, and the only rockers I see are in kits for Chevy motors..? I'll need a whole valvetrain, preferably just a kit. Looking for a nice "torquey" set up for a reasonable price.

Carburetor

and I'll add anything else I can think of later...
 
Some of the stuff you need you prob wont get at jegs or summit. Their catalogs are geared more toward brand X than mopar but they do have some stuff. Try mopar performance, evilbay, jesel, 440source , and i know theres others out there. Get subscription to hi performance mopar magazine. Lots of ads in there.

Matt
 
ok. i had to chime in on this one. i have two perfect comparisons in my shop right now. my duster with a 380hp crate 360 and a 5 spd,AND jon clarks flat basterd valiant. our car are set up the same with RMS suspension/brakes/wieght/ blah blah. flat basterd has an ALL aluminum 528 wedge,efi,6 spd that is almost 700 horse. i raced this car at the PHR Musclecar of the YEAR last summer. of course i race the dammit out of my little duster at autox/roadtrack events. having driven both hard. i could not imagine an iron block BB in one. not to mention the fact that it is a bee-hotch to work on,it is just too much wieght on the front. 700 hp is alot to control on an auto-x,but on a road track it would be nice. i am a SB guy and sure do not have the cash for a Ray Barton aluminum motor,but i just think it is too much. it is a blast to drive though! if my 360 goes,i will punch it to 408 with aluminum heads,have my 500 or hp and go racing. oh,and be able to work on it.
 
The only thing harder to do, regular maintenance-wise, on the big block is spark plugs. Oil change and distributor are harder on the small block. Everything else is about the same.

I can get the heads off one of our big block cars about as quick as I can a small block. The trick is to pull the steering column and loosen the mounts. And, our cars have exhaust manifolds, not headers.
 
Spark plugs come out from the botttom. How much does a 383 or 440 cost compared to an aluminum head stroker cranked small block? I'll take factory parts.
 
Jim Lusk said:
The only thing harder to do, regular maintenance-wise, on the big block is spark plugs. Oil change and distributor are harder on the small block. Everything else is about the same.

I can get the heads off one of our big block cars about as quick as I can a small block. The trick is to pull the steering column and loosen the mounts. And, our cars have exhaust manifolds, not headers.
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yeah, did an oil change on dad's 360. that filter wouldn't go on until I took the header off B/

I'm thinkin' more and more about putting it in the 'cuda when it's done, at least for a while until I get my own mopar. Besides, that gives me about 50% ownership, thus the right to drive it whenever XD
 
i set up my 74 duster to handle decent, its got a bb and viper 6 speed. gets 20 mpg on the highway. i think it would do a lot better with more compression and a more efficient combo.this was just to get it rolling. it handles pretty damn good for what it is. all iron bb, stock power steering. no fiberglass parts. the 400 got a hone, summit cam, rings, tti headers, performer intake, and a holley 750. the front end has 1" torsion bars, 11 3/4 cordoba rotors, moog offset upper control arm bushings rms hiem jointed strut rods, and a tube hellwig sway bar. the back is just some hd espo leafs with an explorer 8.8" rear with 12" discs. kyb shocks and 17" mustang bullits all around. the bb is cool, but the original plan was a 5.7 hemi, and im rethinking that again.
duster1.jpg
 
Jim Lusk said:
Here's the Barracuda...

302 Found
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That car handled very well Jim although I think it might have even been better with bigger sway bars cause there is an exccessive amount of body roll.

WARNING: LONG BIT OF INFORMATION FOR ANYBODY WHO NEEDS TO KNOW THE BASICS, IF YOU KNOW ALOT ABOUT HANDLING, DON'T WASTE YOU'RE TIME HERE. IF YOU DON'T AND WANT TO KNOW WHY WE'RE MAKING OUR SUGGESTIONS, READ ON FOR HANDLING 101.

Just so the OP understands, if you seen in this video how much the car is leaning in the turns, that's called body roll. Body roll is almost always a bad thing because the tires lean as well as the body and that causes the contact path between the tires and the road surface to decrease which gives less traction and reduced handling.

Stiffer springs reduce that issue obviously, but other things to consider are sway bars. Sway bars work by tying the left side tire to the corresponding right side. Example, when entering a righthand corner, inertia will pull the car and make it lean to the left (body roll). The leftside wheel is pushed further into the wheel well and the right side is pulled further down. Sway bars work like torsion bars, when the lefside wheel is pushed into the wheel well the torsion bar twists like a spring and forces the right side wheel further into the wheel well as well, what this accomplishes is it keeps the from leaning (body roll).

Other ways to reduce body roll is performance shocks (NOT DRAG SHOCKS!) to help dampen or slow the body roll down so it's not so sudden. That way if you do something to extreme and push the car past it's limit, you'll have more time to find out and react.

Rebuilding the suspenion with polygraphite bushings is a great way to improve handling because they are stiffer than rubber which eliminates supsension flex. ADDED BONUS: They self lubricate! No more greasing the front end! :cheers:

Another great way to reduce body as well as alot of other issues is to install subframe connectors. These older mopars came after the age of full fram cars. They utilize unitized body construction, meaning the body and the frame are one. The frame rails in the front end somewhere under the driver's knees and the rear rails start end at the back of the rear seat, everything in between is the floor boards and the the roof providing structural rigidity. Subframe connectors are basically weld in tube frame stock that ties the front and rear frames together to resist twist motion on the car caused by hard acceleration and/or cornering. A rollcage adds a lot of rigidity but of course IS not recommended for daily driver's.

Low profile tires, albeit ugly, do help handling because the lower sidewall height means less sidewall flex. this means, more responiveness and more traction in corners.

Further more the last two equations to solve handling are proper suspension alignment which is too complecated to lay out here, and proper weight distribution. You want 50/50 weight distribution between the front and rear of the vehicle. Aluminum and fiberglas parts on the front of the car can aid in getting closer to that number.
 
I believe those videos were before the addition of bigger sway bars and certainly before the addition of bigger torsion bars. Rear spring rate also needs to be addressed (those are a pair of home built stacks and work fairly well for what they are). Many things were yet to be addressed, but the point is that the car handled better than most a-bodies that are street driven and that's with a big block hanging out over the nose.
 
Jim Lusk said:
I believe those videos were before the addition of bigger sway bars and certainly before the addition of bigger torsion bars. Rear spring rate also needs to be addressed (those are a pair of home built stacks and work fairly well for what they are). Many things were yet to be addressed, but the point is that the car handled better than most a-bodies that are street driven and that's with a big block hanging out over the nose.
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I bet you in that video that his car was handling WAAAAY better than my car does right now lol! But either way I'm glad to hear he did address his bodyroll. I'm sure the car handles even better and he's alot more comfortable. The body roll in my car makes me feel like I'm riding a motorcycle. :D
 
Hey BTW Jim, and sorry to hijack the thread guys, but what were those stacks made from? I've heard of adding late '80's model D-100 leaves to factory spring packs to reduce roll and sag, it kinda got me wondering what he was using.

I thought of that route, then I said screw it and went with two passenger side SS springs. Cheap and gets the job done.
 
I had two sets of factory A-body heavy duty (340) springs. I took them apart and used two of the longest sub-leafs, two of the second longest, and one of the next longest. I built them for my old 67 GT hardtop that I put the 440/4sp into (the drivetrain that is now in my son's 67 convertible). I built these mainly for stance, but they work ok.
 
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