A different alternator question

[furyus2]

Hopefully this is a different question. The issue, poor charging at idle. 12.6 without a load. Discharge with a load. Verified grounds, and voltage drops.I've looked at all the Toyota, Ford, and Dakota alternator conversions.
Why do one of these, instead of a Powermaster alternator?
If choosing a Powermaster, would you prefer a 1wire Chrysler style, or 3 wire Chrysler style, square backs?

 

[thesiren74]

Following

 

[Dana67Dart]

assuming everything is in good working order. By changing the pully ratio between crank and alternator you can increase the output at idle. My last alt had an approx 3" dia pulley, changed to a 2.5 to 2.75 alt pulley and no more discharge at idle with the brake on.
Just my 2 cents

 

[tonysrt]

I have a powermaster alt. with the 3 wire and use the original regulator. Problem is, usually the regulator goes bad, and in the 1 wire you have to replace alt. which is a lot more work then replacing only the regulator.

 

[RustyRatRod]

That is classic Chrysler at its finest. Perfectly normal. Does it charge with a load at say 1500 RPM? If so, it ain't broke. Don't fix it.

 

[67Dart273]

The "old style" Mopar alternators are well known for poor output at low speed. "Squareback" are better. It turns out that some of the LOWER amp squarebacks are better at low output than some of the LARGER ones. I think the 45a one.

Powermaster are modified. I don't know much about them. Bear in mind that special regulators are gonna be hard to find on "that Friday" when they quit. STAY AWAY from "1 wire" in my opinion. Main reason is that the voltage sensing is on the "one" wire......so any voltage drop on that wire will cause the system/ battery to run lower. You need OVER sized charging wire on a "one wire"

In general most/ all more modern alternators are better at low output. MANY on here have done "Denso" conversions. People like Mancini sell bracket kits and I'm sure there are others

FRANKLY back in the day WE DID NOT WORRY ABOUT IT (Low speed light dimming). I came from a time........my first cars---------55-6-7 Chev and 60 Falcon-------had generators. When you are saddled with those old things, a little light dimming with an alternator is nuttin' LMAO

 

[famous bob]

The "old style" Mopar alternators are well known for poor output at low speed. "Squareback" are better. It turns out that some of the LOWER amp squarebacks are better at low output than some of the LARGER ones. I think the 45a one.

Powermaster are modified. I don't know much about them. Bear in mind that special regulators are gonna be hard to find on "that Friday" when they quit. STAY AWAY from "1 wire" in my opinion. Main reason is that the voltage sensing is on the "one" wire......so any voltage drop on that wire will cause the system/ battery to run lower. You need OVER sized charging wire on a "one wire"

In general most/ all more modern alternators are better at low output. MANY on here have done "Denso" conversions. People like Mancini sell bracket kits and I'm sure there are others

FRANKLY back in the day WE DID NOT WORRY ABOUT IT (Low speed light dimming). I came from a time........my first cars---------55-6-7 Chev and 60 Falcon-------had generators. When you are saddled with those old things, a little light dimming with an alternator is nuttin' LMAO

I went w/ a one wire 130 amp gm alternator and aint lookin back.

 

[furyus2]

assuming everything is in good working order. By changing the pully ratio between crank and alternator you can increase the output at idle. My last alt had an approx 3" dia pulley, changed to a 2.5 to 2.75 alt pulley and no more discharge at idle with the brake on.
Just my 2 cents

It already has the 2.75 pulley on it. Thanks.

 

[furyus2]

That is classic Chrysler at its finest. Perfectly normal. Does it charge with a load at say 1500 RPM? If so, it ain't broke. Don't fix it.

Well, the old alt took a crap, so I have to do something. What's better, Powermaster, or Toyota, Dakota, Ford?

 

[furyus2]

The "old style" Mopar alternators are well known for poor output at low speed. "Squareback" are better. It turns out that some of the LOWER amp squarebacks are better at low output than some of the LARGER ones. I think the 45a one.

Powermaster are modified. I don't know much about them. Bear in mind that special regulators are gonna be hard to find on "that Friday" when they quit. STAY AWAY from "1 wire" in my opinion. Main reason is that the voltage sensing is on the "one" wire......so any voltage drop on that wire will cause the system/ battery to run lower. You need OVER sized charging wire on a "one wire"

In general most/ all more modern alternators are better at low output. MANY on here have done "Denso" conversions. People like Mancini sell bracket kits and I'm sure there are others

FRANKLY back in the day WE DID NOT WORRY ABOUT IT (Low speed light dimming). I came from a time........my first cars---------55-6-7 Chev and 60 Falcon-------had generators. When you are saddled with those old things, a little light dimming with an alternator is nuttin' LMAO

I think the Powermaster one wire alt actually just has one of those small VR on the back of the ALT, so it's not really a "one wire". It just has the VR in a different place. I get what you're saying about trying to find that little VR if it has a failure.
Also, I have an electric fuel pump, and plan on a stereo, so output at idle would be great.
So, would you prefer the Toyota, Ford, or Dakota? which one, and why?

 

[TrailBeast]

I think the Powermaster one wire alt actually just has one of those small VR on the back of the ALT, so it's not really a "one wire". It just has the VR in a different place. I get what you're saying about trying to find that little VR if it has a failure.
Also, I have an electric fuel pump, and plan on a stereo, so output at idle would be great.
So, would you prefer the Toyota, Ford, or Dakota? which one, and why?

I run the stock 60 amp square back alternator and have electric fans, electric fuel pump and a standard ish stereo with no lighting dimming, wiper slowdown, signal slowdowns or heater blower slowing.
A headlight relay setup like @crackedback sells and LED lighting for the entire outside cured all that.

Instead of trying to make more power at idle I opted for needing less.

 

[Kent mosby]

I run the stock 60 amp square back alternator and have electric fans, electric fuel pump and a standard ish stereo with no lighting dimming, wiper slowdown, signal slowdowns or heater blower slowing.
A headlight relay setup like @crackedback sells and LED lighting for the entire outside cured all that.

Instead of trying to make more power at idle I opted for needing less.

Any reference info on the relay setup

 

[TrailBeast]

Any reference info on the relay setup

When you type @crackedback it basically notifies him that he is being mentioned and should chime in when he see's the notification.
OR, you can use his username to contact him directly.

The headlight relay kit is a much bigger deal than most think, because not only does the kit make the headlights a lot brighter due to them getting voltage directly from the battery but it also takes that HUGE amperage load of the headlights off all the related wiring and switches.
The headlight and dimmer switches live a lot longer due to the reduced load and heat from not having all that power running through them.
The only load all that related stuff will have on it after that will be the load of the relay. (plus or minus an amp instead of 10-12)
This one upgrade will go a long way to everything else electrical having more power available.

 

[crackedback]

Here's the ad. I've sold a lot of these kits over the years and they are solid piece with quality components.

[FOR SALE] - Plug and play - Headlight Relay Kits

Any questions please ask.

 

[furyus2]

O.K. Not trying to upset anyone. I do appreciate your input, but none of the replies addresses my original question. I need to make an informed opinion, but I can't if no one answers my question. I do have the relays on my headlights from a kit by Slant Six Dan.

 

[Mattax]

Honestly. Its not clear what you're asking. That's why I didn't even try to answer.
67Dart273 explained the disadvantages of a "1 wire" alternator. Also that even within a typel, the output curves vary.
Are you interested in the performance characteristics of a squareback vs. a denso?
My sense is that very generally a denso is probably better at low rpm. But I wouldn't buy anything, especially something that requires changing brackets and connectors without getting solid info on the specific unit.
An important consideration on "turn on" speed is the pulley ratio. All alternators have some alternator rpm below which they don't generate power.
Might find the posts by BCJohnny good for understanding the tech. How Alternators are "Upgraded" - Speed Talk

 

[plymouth67]

I also went with a gm one wire and it puts out 14.2 volts all the time...no questions asked!!! It was like 45 bucks and has a lifetime warranty. Used the factory 12v wire and wrapped up the original fields wires up in the harness so you dont see them...hell even left the regulator plugged in and on the fire wall. Dont like to cross breed things but I'm also not going to fight the charging system as my car has a long history of charging problems....not this guy!!

 

[furyus2]

Honestly. Its not clear what you're asking. That's why I didn't even try to answer.
67Dart273 explained the disadvantages of a "1 wire" alternator. Also that even within a typel, the output curves vary.
Are you interested in the performance characteristics of a squareback vs. a denso?
My sense is that very generally a denso is probably better at low rpm. But I wouldn't buy anything, especially something that requires changing brackets and connectors without getting solid info on the specific unit.
An important consideration on "turn on" speed is the pulley ratio. All alternators have some alternator rpm below which they don't generate power.
Might find the posts by BCJohnny good for understanding the tech. How Alternators are "Upgraded" - Speed Talk

I'm not sure what caused confusion. The question seems simple to me. "I have typically poor Chrysler charging at idle. The question is; which alternator is better at charging at idle speeds? Mopar style Powermaster, Toyota Denso, Dakota Denso, or Ford 3g?
You did answer my question by saying you would lean towards the Denso. So, the second question is which Denso, Toyota, or Dakota? Thanks.

 

[Mattax]

I think you misunderstood my sentence. It was just an observation of what appears to be the general design characteristics.
I'm telling you its very hard to make generalizations with alternators. You have to get a performance curve for each specific alternator. Then you have to be able to convert them to the same voltage. Assuming both are reported in alternator rpm, then you can compare knowing the pulley ratio on your engine. Then you'll know whether the output at idle will meet the loads for your car at idle.

When I write specific alternator, I mean exact model, and if from a big rebuilder, the exact unit. For example, this one

It turns out that some of the LOWER amp squarebacks are better at low output than some of the LARGER ones. I think the 45a one.

might be better than some denso models at low rpm.

Here's some examples of performance curves from Remy or ACDelco remanufacturing that used to be on their website.
The 15 SI was an older design but the '70 amp' has higher output at 1000 alternator rpm than even the '94 amp' 12 SI.

Notice these curves were generated at 12 Volts, not 14.2 which is the actual setpoint of the regulator it will be run with in the vehicle. The curve shape will be the same, but the actual potential amps out will be different.

Measuring the pulley ratio on my Jeep's engine, I could then add engine speed to the 12 SI graph. Doing that showed the output at 1000 alternator rpm was less important than first appeared.

Its a fully smogged engine with idle speed of 600-650 in drive. At that rpm, the 94 amp 12 SI and the 70 amp 15 SI are about equal. The 15 SI may run cooler. The 12 SI was the standard alternator, whereas 15 SI uses different brackets.

Sorry I dont have the equivalent info for even factory Chrysler and Denso alternators.