A little help to verify what I am thinking?

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TrailBeast

TrailBeast

AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
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A few days ago I took my car (73 Dart) out for a 160 mile highway trip and noticed that it tracked strangely.
If I crossed a line of slightly uneven pavement it tended to veer that way and I would have to correct it back, or it would practically change lanes on it's own. (well not quite that bad) but it was a little scary the way it drifted around at 75 mph.

I decided I would chk my alignment the next day and found it was towed out about 3/4 of an inch, and thought "Ok, that explains a lot"

I got out the tape measure, backed the car up a little and then forward again to straighten the wheels and settle the suspension then re set the tow to 1/8 inch.

Here's the weird part,
I drive it down the street a ways and it felt really good but when I hit a little bump in the street I felt a major rolling resistance and the car slowed down quite a bit, so I let it roll to a stop and get out to take a look.
There was about 2 total inches of toe in (enough to make the tires squall on the pavement)

After looking things over I notice one of my strut rod bushings is split (drivers side) so I order a new set of Prothane bushings.
At the same time I ordered offset upper bushings, and all new Prothane lower control arm bushings.
I have been wanting to get the caster adjustment taken car of anyway because the car drifts in straight line driving (constantly having to correct a little bit down the road at 55-60 mph)

The steering box is in real nice condition with no slop in it at all, and is not loose or have cracked mounting on the frame.
It does not move at all when turning the steering wheel back and forth.
The idler arm only moves back and forth, with near zero up and down play in it.
I have one ball joint with a little click of play in it and have one to replace it with already.

This may be a clue as to what is going on also.
When I turn left or right either one, the wheels will dive into the turn that direction.
Meaning, If I let go of the wheel it will try to turn into the corner more
I was assuming this is because of the caster (sound right?)

So, in a nut shell if I set the tow to 1/8 inch the wheels will end up in that major tow in.
If I set it at zero, it drives ok but drifts and is majorly affected by uneven pavement.

Thoughts?
Am I on the right track with the suspension repairs?
(New strut rod bushings, upper and lower control arm bushings with offset uppers)

Thanks.
 
Check the camber bolts on the UCA's and replace all the ball joints, toe rods, bushings etc that are wear items up front. Check the struts for damage or bends. Check all bolts and nuts and tighten as necessary. Check your tires for excessive wear and replace them if needed. Once your all done replacing everything then get a good alignment.

Sounds like its time.
 
Uh thanks, but I was kinda hoping for something besides "Replace everything" and take it in to a shop.
I could have done that without asking someone.

Thanks though
 
I don't know if you have this chart but these are the updated specs for using radial tires. From what I understand the old specs make the car drive weird since they were for bias ply tires.
 

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zero vs 1/8" toe may affect handling, but not all that much.

You started with "toe changed 3/4"????" If toe changed that much, it seems to me there is something major loose/ broke/ worn.

I'd be under there with a pry bar. Jack up the bottoms of the LCA and put jack stands under 'em so that the car weight is on the LCAs but not on the lower ball joints. Then you can see if/ how bad the lower ball joints are.

Particularly pry around the LCA pivots and see if the arms, lower pivots, bushings, are loose, broken, cracked. Strut bushings. Check them.

Now just an example of how difficult things can be, so, irregardless of toe/ other adjustments, tires can cause some REALLY strange handling. Tires that are worn some, but don't really show it, mismatched front -- to rear, etc.

A good example was many years ago, my boss had a fairly new Dodge D100, nice pickup, drove it a lot. We had a new pair of radials put on the rear with the existing front radials. Instantly, that thing was absolutely SCARY at more than about 50 mph. It felt as if the rear axle was coming right out
 
Oklacarcollecto said:
I don't know if you have this chart but these are the updated specs for using radial tires. From what I understand the old specs make the car drive weird since they were for bias ply tires.
Click to expand...

I have that chart in my collection for when I change things out and add the offset bushings.
Thank you

67Dart273 said:
zero vs 1/8" toe may affect handling, but not all that much.

You started with "toe changed 3/4"????" If toe changed that much, it seems to me there is something major loose/ broke/ worn.

I'd be under there with a pry bar. Jack up the bottoms of the LCA and put jack stands under 'em so that the car weight is on the LCAs but not on the lower ball joints. Then you can see if/ how bad the lower ball joints are.

Particularly pry around the LCA pivots and see if the arms, lower pivots, bushings, are loose, broken, cracked. Strut bushings. Check them.

Now just an example of how difficult things can be, so, irregardless of toe/ other adjustments, tires can cause some REALLY strange handling. Tires that are worn some, but don't really show it, mismatched front -- to rear, etc.

A good example was many years ago, my boss had a fairly new Dodge D100, nice pickup, drove it a lot. We had a new pair of radials put on the rear with the existing front radials. Instantly, that thing was absolutely SCARY at more than about 50 mph. It felt as if the rear axle was coming right out
Click to expand...

Yep, that's about where it stands Del.
Just got to go out and do it.
Thanks
 
The split strut rod bushing probably explains everything. With a strut rod loose, caster and toe-in will change erratically. It will not be safe to drive. You mention oversteer (turns more the more you turn the wheel) -- this is extremely unsafe. I once spun my Barracuda 270º across 3 lanes of US 101 in Mountain View because of a split strut rod bushing (punched it coming off the ramp); wound up facing oncoming traffic. Miraculously, nobody hit me. Don't try this at home.

More free advice: just because you found one thing broken, don't assume nothing else is broken. The bushing is probably a hint that all the front end consumables are pretty worn out. They tend to get replaced all at once "while I'm in there".
 
Huh, I did kind of the same thing once.
Let my girlfriend at the time who's daily driver was a VW drive my Roadrunner (440) in the rain.
Started out of the parking lot where she worked and 3- 360 degree circles later we were on the other side of a four lane street in a parking lot.
I said "Ok that's enough" and I drove.
 
you should check out this article, bro

(if you have not read it already)

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...ive_camber_alignment_corrective_control_arms/

the guides where the cam adjusters sit inside, they become worn... what happens is you lose the ability to adjust your slight positive camber for highway use. one of the vendors on this site is actually the manuf. of the control arms that correct the problem (we get a 10% discount)
 
I thought about that, but I just can't do it right now.
Have to settle for what I can do with the offset bushings.

Thank you though.


moparlover said:
you should check out this article, bro

(if you have not read it already)

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...ive_camber_alignment_corrective_control_arms/

the guides where the cam adjusters sit inside, they become worn... what happens is you lose the ability to adjust your slight positive camber for highway use. one of the vendors on this site is actually the manuf. of the control arms that correct the problem (we get a 10% discount)
Click to expand...
 
TrailBeast,Lots of good advice given by all, especially what 67Dart said to do. If one component goes bad, such as the ball joint, it puts extra strain and wear on other components. When you have two things needing replacing such as the strut rod bushing and the ball joint, you should really pay attention to everything and check it all out while you are under there.
 
DFX 340 Duster said:
TrailBeast,Lots of good advice given by all, especially what 67Dart said to do. If one component goes bad, such as the ball joint, it puts extra strain and wear on other components. When you have two things needing replacing such as the strut rod bushing and the ball joint, you should really pay attention to everything and check it all out while you are under there.
Click to expand...

Oh believe me, once I get into it it'll get done.
Thanks
 
jack up the front of the car and wiggle each tire for wheel bearing play or tie rod end play. a brake pad or shoe that is not retracting will cause one side or another to drag
 
It was a combination of a bad tierod end and a serious case of negative caster.
It drives really nice again now (Better than ever actually) and all the new bushing I have coming are all going in anyway when they get here.

No more diving into turns, and no more odd assed toe in issues, and the steeing tries to return to straight if I let go of the wheel in a corner.
It doesn't even try to change lanes on it's own anymore. :)
I swear it had a good 8 degrees of negative caster, which answered my own question in the original post.

"This may be a clue as to what is going on also.
When I turn left or right either one, the wheels will dive into the turn that direction.
Meaning, If I let go of the wheel it will try to turn into the corner more
I was assuming this is because of the caster (sound right?)"

The tierod end was the main problem, but the effects were amplified greatly with the negative caster.


 
Strut rod bushing allow but limit lateral wear on lower arm bushings also.
As a 73 it is possible that lower arm bushings and strut rod bushings have never been replaced.
If that pivot pin is eating away at its hole though the K you should have a pretty good squeak over speed bumps.
If you want to replace only those easy to get to, less labor parts, fine, but that may not fix it.
 
Just did the upper and lower bushings on my 67 cuda, plus strut rods, got it aleigned and it never drove so good. My bushings were definatly shot.
 
RedFish said:
Strut rod bushing allow but limit lateral wear on lower arm bushings also.
As a 73 it is possible that lower arm bushings and strut rod bushings have never been replaced.
If that pivot pin is eating away at its hole though the K you should have a pretty good squeak over speed bumps.
If you want to replace only those easy to get to, less labor parts, fine, but that may not fix it.
Click to expand...


The parts started to come in today.:D
Poly lower control arm bushings, offset bushings for the upper control arms, Poly strut rod bushings, all new ball joints. (Idler arm is nice and solid because the previous owner replaced it right before I bought the car)
Lower control arm pivot pins are solid and tight.

While I was into it I noticed I'm going to need brake pads.
The pads, rotors, bearings and rear brakes were all new when I got it, but I do put down a lot of miles. (No biggie)
I love putting new stuff on it anyway. (A lot more than my wife likes it.) :)
 
Yeah, upgrading the front end bushings to poly ones and replacing the ball joints should help a lot. I had issues with an old car I used to have and after replacing the parts made it drive like a new car. Really stiffens stuff up.
 
PoisonDart74 said:
You go trailbeast, in the middle of the k-frame reinforcement right now. :)
Click to expand...

If I have the time while I have the LCA's off I'm thinking to do the reinforcement mods to them.
Seems like it would be worth doing at the same time.
I already have welded 2x3 subframe connectors on it, so why stop there right?

Rockerdude said:
Yeah, upgrading the front end bushings to poly ones and replacing the ball joints should help a lot. I had issues with an old car I used to have and after replacing the parts made it drive like a new car. Really stiffens stuff up.
Click to expand...

I'm REALLY looking forward to it. :D
It's kinda scary that two weeks ago I was doing 120 in it.:eek:ops: :D
 
TrailBeast said:
The tierod end was the main problem, but the effects were amplified greatly with the negative caster.
Click to expand...

:thumleft: Good to hear you found the problem. It's amazing what a worn part will do to the driving experience....
 
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