A833 4 speed

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70SwingerGuy said:
That is true, and you are correct on that, and there is lots of discussion about atf vs gear oil on this site. I just like to think that a lot of things regarding lubricants have changed in the last 50-60 years, and there may be better alternatives out there now than there were in the 60's.
Click to expand...
I have read a half a dozen articles that say never use atf in it including my builder maybe people that use atf in their transmission don't drive theirs I drive my car every day rain or shine
 
ryan1964 said:
I have read a half a dozen articles that say never use atf in it including my builder maybe people that use atf in their transmission don't drive theirs I drive my car every day rain or shine
Click to expand...
Reading everything but the right thing. Try reading the factory service manual. I'm out.
 
Back in the 70's a friend had a 72 340 4spd Demon. He went to service the trans and when he drained it ATF came out. Called the dealer and they told him that is what it called for. His car shifted like butter even when it was cold. My 69 Dart shifted like an old truck when cold with gear lube in it.

We asked if I could use ATF in my car and the answer was no due to the 70 and older brass forks vs. steel forks in the 71 up transmissions.

Now whether this was fact I really don't know. But it seemed logical at the time so I always used lube in the early cars up to 70 and fluid in the later cars 71 up.
 

IMHO
One of TWO things is going on here;
1) either the disk is dragging, which causes everything in the box except the synchronizers, to continue spinning after clutching it, and so, the brass cannot slow it DOWN; or
2) more likely is that the thick oil, upon clutching, slows the geartrain too fast, and then the brass has to actually bring ALL of it, back UP to speed.

In both cases;
at low ambient temperature, with thick gear-oil practically glued to the brake-cone, the brass has no chance to squeeze it out. It gives up in the allotted time, governed by the strut-spring tension, and the slider jumps ahead, butts up against the spinning clutch teeth, and grinding is a given.
If you continue doing this, eventually both of those (Second gear and slider) will require replacement, even tho on inspection, the brass looks perfect........ cuz it stopped working a long time ago.

The temporary cure may be Dextron ATF, which doesn't grab the cluster, and squeezes out quickly from between the brass and the brake. But
if the disc is dragging, the only things you can do is increase the departure, and/or move the stick more slowly, waiting for the brass to do it's job, and hope for the best.

If yur a hard charger, I add 50% light gear-oil to the EP-oil, for to keep the roller bearing surfaces from wearing out. The rest of the guts does neither need nor want gear-oil for most if not all, small-block street applications.
>The permanent cure for a dragging clutch is to replace the "warped disc", and/or check the finger heights and lubricate the pilot bushing.
>The permanent cure for the lack of brass-braking is to take the box apart and modify the cones, and/or increase the spring-tension on the struts.
But that's another post.

BTW
In the 1>2 gate (or even in the 3>4 gate) the shift rod adjustment makes no difference, don't waste you time. That adjustment only centers the two gates to make it easier for a 2>3 shift to be accomplished.
Unless, you have shift stops, like a super-shifter has. But again, those only prevent OVER-SHIFTING and do not affect the braking action from the brass.
BTW-2
>I run the 50/50 mixture year-round. and
>I set my free-play pretty tight. This allows me to push the pedal down further than normal, to separate the pressure plate off the flywheel as far as may be needed. But, in my experience with the CF diaphragm PP, which IMO works great, when the disc starts dragging, it needs to be replaced AND, has already been vibrating for quite some time, indicating a problem, usually with the spring pockets.
I run regular organic factory 340 discs, cuz I like the way that they engage on the street. However, they used to spit out their springs on a regular basis; until learned not to dump the clutch at high rpm anymore, lol. After that, they began to last a reasonable period of time.
>Also in my experience, on the street, full-synthetic did not work, nor, after taking the trans down 3 times for modifications, could I make it work. Yet on the fourth attempt, having completely washed out the synthetic, and reinstalling the 50/50 juice, it worked like lightning.
>Also In my experience,
I have no preference for which fork system is in my box, and I have never broken a brass fork, nor an old-style brass-ring, and, I have been running A833s almost continuously on the street, since 1970.
However, I do prefer the late-style struts, cuz they seem to hang on to the slider a hair longer. But honestly, on the street, it's hardly noticeable.
>Ok one more; those steel forks can easily be repaired by brazing with a hard brass rod. The sliders do not seem to wear at all, so even if you have steel forks running in ATF, and you wear your forks out by continuously pushing on the stick in a feeble attempt to keep the thing from jumping out of gear on deceleration, repairing them is no big deal.
 
Last edited:
Oldmanmopar said:
Now whether this was fact I really don't know.
Click to expand...
I heard that too,
but in my experience,
the forks don't care.
However, I mix some LIGHT EP oil in, just to keep the roller surfaces from prematurely wearing out, cuz until I started doing that, I was rotating or replacing, the cluster-pin on a fairly regular basis.

This is NOT a criticism,
just my experience.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
Back in the 70's a friend had a 72 340 4spd Demon. He went to service the trans and when he drained it ATF came out. Called the dealer and they told him that is what it called for. His car shifted like butter even when it was cold. My 69 Dart shifted like an old truck when cold with gear lube in it.

We asked if I could use ATF in my car and the answer was no due to the 70 and older brass forks vs. steel forks in the 71 up transmissions.

Now whether this was fact I really don't know. But it seemed logical at the time so I always used lube in the early cars up to 70 and fluid in the later cars 71 up.
Click to expand...
That's what I was told as well
 
1000044657.jpg
1000044656.jpg
 
AJ/FormS said:
IMHO
One of TWO things is going on here;
1) either the disk is dragging, which causes everything in the box except the synchronizers, to continue spinning after clutching it, and so, the brass cannot slow it DOWN; or
2) more likely is that the thick oil, upon clutching, slows the geartrain too fast, and then the brass has to actually bring ALL of it, back UP to speed.

In both cases;
at low ambient temperature, with thick gear-oil practically glued to the brake-cone, the brass has no chance to squeeze it out. It gives up in the allotted time, governed by the strut-spring tension, and the slider jumps ahead, butts up against the spinning clutch teeth, and grinding is a given.
If you continue doing this, eventually both of those (Second gear and slider) will require replacement, even tho on inspection, the brass looks perfect........ cuz it stopped working a long time ago.

The temporary cure may be Dextron ATF, which doesn't grab the cluster, and squeezes out quickly from between the brass and the brake. But
if the disc is dragging, the only things you can do is increase the departure, and/or move the stick more slowly, waiting for the brass to do it's job, and hope for the best.

If yur a hard charger, I add 50% light gear-oil to the EP-oil, for to keep the roller bearing surfaces from wearing out. The rest of the guts does neither need nor want gear-oil for most if not all, small-block street applications.
>The permanent cure for a dragging clutch is to replace the "warped disc", and/or check the finger heights and lubricate the pilot bushing.
>The permanent cure for the lack of brass-braking is to take the box apart and modify the cones, and/or increase the spring-tension on the struts.
But that's another post.

BTW
In the 1>2 gate (or even in the 3>4 gate) the shift rod adjustment makes no difference, don't waste you time. That adjustment only centers the two gates to make it easier for a 2>3 shift to be accomplished.
Unless, you have shift stops, like a super-shifter has. But again, those only prevent OVER-SHIFTING and do not affect the braking action from the brass.
BTW-2
>I run the 50/50 mixture year-round. and
>I set my free-play pretty tight. This allows me to push the pedal down further than normal, to separate the pressure plate off the flywheel as far as may be needed. But, in my experience with the CF diaphragm PP, which IMO works great, when the disc starts dragging, it needs to be replaced AND, has already been vibrating for quite some time, indicating a problem, usually with the spring pockets.
I run regular organic factory 340 discs, cuz I like the way that they engage on the street. However, they used to spit out their springs on a regular basis; until learned not to dump the clutch at high rpm anymore, lol. After that, they began to last a reasonable period of time.
>Also in my experience, on the street, full-synthetic did not work, nor, after taking the trans down 3 times for modifications, could I make it work. Yet on the fourth attempt, having completely washed out the synthetic, and reinstalling the 50/50 juice, it worked like lightning.
>Also In my experience,
I have no preference for which fork system is in my box, and I have never broken a brass fork, nor an old-style brass-ring, and, I have been running A833s almost continuously on the street, since 1970.
However, I do prefer the late-style struts, cuz they seem to hang on to the slider a hair longer. But honestly, on the street, it's hardly noticeable.
>Ok one more; those steel forks can easily be repaired by brazing with a hard brass rod. The sliders do not seem to wear at all, so even if you have steel forks running in ATF, and you wear your forks out by continuously pushing on the stick in a feeble attempt to keep the thing from jumping out of gear on deceleration, repairing them is no big deal.
Click to expand...

Screenshot_20250127_212241_Chrome.jpg
 
AJ/FormS said:
IMHO
One of TWO things is going on here;
1) either the disk is dragging, which causes everything in the box except the synchronizers, to continue spinning after clutching it, and so, the brass cannot slow it DOWN; or
2) more likely is that the thick oil, upon clutching, slows the geartrain too fast, and then the brass has to actually bring ALL of it, back UP to speed.

In both cases;
at low ambient temperature, with thick gear-oil practically glued to the brake-cone, the brass has no chance to squeeze it out. It gives up in the allotted time, governed by the strut-spring tension, and the slider jumps ahead, butts up against the spinning clutch teeth, and grinding is a given.
If you continue doing this, eventually both of those (Second gear and slider) will require replacement, even tho on inspection, the brass looks perfect........ cuz it stopped working a long time ago.

The temporary cure may be Dextron ATF, which doesn't grab the cluster, and squeezes out quickly from between the brass and the brake. But
if the disc is dragging, the only things you can do is increase the departure, and/or move the stick more slowly, waiting for the brass to do it's job, and hope for the best.

If yur a hard charger, I add 50% light gear-oil to the EP-oil, for to keep the roller bearing surfaces from wearing out. The rest of the guts does neither need nor want gear-oil for most if not all, small-block street applications.
>The permanent cure for a dragging clutch is to replace the "warped disc", and/or check the finger heights and lubricate the pilot bushing.
>The permanent cure for the lack of brass-braking is to take the box apart and modify the cones, and/or increase the spring-tension on the struts.
But that's another post.

BTW
In the 1>2 gate (or even in the 3>4 gate) the shift rod adjustment makes no difference, don't waste you time. That adjustment only centers the two gates to make it easier for a 2>3 shift to be accomplished.
Unless, you have shift stops, like a super-shifter has. But again, those only prevent OVER-SHIFTING and do not affect the braking action from the brass.
BTW-2
>I run the 50/50 mixture year-round. and
>I set my free-play pretty tight. This allows me to push the pedal down further than normal, to separate the pressure plate off the flywheel as far as may be needed. But, in my experience with the CF diaphragm PP, which IMO works great, when the disc starts dragging, it needs to be replaced AND, has already been vibrating for quite some time, indicating a problem, usually with the spring pockets.
I run regular organic factory 340 discs, cuz I like the way that they engage on the street. However, they used to spit out their springs on a regular basis; until learned not to dump the clutch at high rpm anymore, lol. After that, they began to last a reasonable period of time.
>Also in my experience, on the street, full-synthetic did not work, nor, after taking the trans down 3 times for modifications, could I make it work. Yet on the fourth attempt, having completely washed out the synthetic, and reinstalling the 50/50 juice, it worked like lightning.
>Also In my experience,
I have no preference for which fork system is in my box, and I have never broken a brass fork, nor an old-style brass-ring, and, I have been running A833s almost continuously on the street, since 1970.
However, I do prefer the late-style struts, cuz they seem to hang on to the slider a hair longer. But honestly, on the street, it's hardly noticeable.
>Ok one more; those steel forks can easily be repaired by brazing with a hard brass rod. The sliders do not seem to wear at all, so even if you have steel forks running in ATF, and you wear your forks out by continuously pushing on the stick in a feeble attempt to keep the thing from jumping out of gear on deceleration, repairing them is no big deal.
Click to expand...
I put the pennzoil in it and it shifts fine now thank you
 
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