A833 Four Speed Gets Stuck in Reverse

Discussion in 'Manual Transmission & Clutch Discussions' started by clifftt, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. yellow rose

    yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

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    That's a pretty nice bench. First thing I figured was it would make a damn nice reloading bench.
     
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    • AJ/FormS

      AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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      All good points, just never seen it.
       
    • 66fs

      66fs Well-Known Member

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      The problem is not in the detent. The problem is in the reverse “shoe”. The reverse shoe and 1-2 shift arm are matched to prevent the box from going into more than one gear at a time. There are 2 shoulder bolts that go into 2 tight holes in the side cover. These align the cover very precisely. Find the 2 shoulder bolts and put them where they go, I think they are in the center on the short sides of the cover. The worse scenario is someone put the 4 speed together with mismatched parts.
       
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      • Marcohotrod

        Marcohotrod Well-Known Member

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        the fix is, as has been said, loosen the bolts, tap the cover up, tighten bolts! I had the opposite problem-she would pop out of reverse-loosen bolts, tap cover down, tighten bolts
         
      • clifftt

        clifftt Well-Known Member

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        Wow, thanks for the wealth of opinions. The tranny was working fine when I picked up this car. Since I went into overhaul mode, I had a very reputable shop in town (owner had been involved in Mopar drag cars for years) tear it down, look it over, and reseal the tranny. He found no problems with it. No parts were replaced, other than some gasket seal kit, so no mismatched parts as 66fs suggested. (In retrospect, should of left it alone.)
        Thank you for the explanation. When I loosened and tightened the side cover, I tapped the cover upward without knowing what I was supposed to accomplish. It didn’t move upward at all. Then I tightened it. Next time, I will retry and hopefully find that sweet spot where the side cover and shoulder bolts line up.
         
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        • j par

          j par Well-hung Member

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          I'm sure it was either you or triple-r that told me to do that and bazzinga! That was a couple/few years ago and still a GREAT memory.
           
        • j par

          j par Well-hung Member

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          8 ×32" ! I can't think of much I couldn't do on it...
          The front edge was all cheddared and covered up with ducktape. Today I sanded it, cleaned it, oiled it, and wiped it clean. It looks good.
           
        • clifftt

          clifftt Well-Known Member

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          OK, pretty frustrated now. Have done this four times, loosen ALL bolts about an eighth of an inch to where the fluid is coming out.
          I have punched UP the cover with a rubber mallet and I’ve punched UP the cover using the mallet on a punch. I don’t hear a “magic”click or anything.

          I’ve loosened the cover, put it in reverse, tightened the bolts.
          I check it and find that it is locked into reverse. I pound it into neutral with a mallet, then get 12-15 good shifts thru all gears before it locks, ONCE AGAIN, into reverse.

          Maybe I need to completely pop off the cover to reset it? Not sure I have enough room, this is an early A body, maybe the tranny needs to come out? Shit, I hope not, PITA!!

          image.jpg
           
        • clifftt

          clifftt Well-Known Member

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          Also, 66fs, the two middle outside bolts are shoulder bolts. The last time, I tightened those before tightening the corner bolts, thinking it would reset/reposition the cover. Didn’t work.:mad:

          One last thing: If I sit and shift continuously, I can go through the gears pretty well. If I leave it in reverse for more than 30 seconds or so, it gets locked in reverse. It has done this a number of times. For what that’s worth...
           
          Last edited: May 18, 2018
        • mopar head

          mopar head Well-Known Member

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          Been following along, cause I`m going through the same crap with a gearbox sold to me by a member years ago. In addition the hurst shifter seems to go out of alignment by itself, how this is even possible? Hope we both come up with a fix without a major rebuild, but I don`t think I`ll be that lucky.
           
        • clifftt

          clifftt Well-Known Member

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          Found this on YouTube this morning. Unfortunately, I have to run up to a wedding this afternoon, won’t be back until tomorrow.
          At 12:15, the elf explains how to adjust the cover. (LOL, this filmstrip reminds me of sixth grade sex ed back in the day!)
           
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          • AJ/FormS

            AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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            Hang on, when you push the cover up........ it has to stay up,while you tighten the long-shoulder cover alignment-bolts; at 3 and 9 o'clock.

            Ok so now
            Part one; external
            First; make sure the engine mounts are secure, and that the clutch is NOT dragging.
            Second; make sure that engaging reverse with the stick, is over to the left towards your knee; and UP! away from you,towards the dash.
            Third; make sure the reverse link rod is not getting stuck on any other part of the linkages. You know, cotterpins, or the adjacent swivel, or the link-rod is rubbing on the case,and such.
            Fourth; make sure the external lever is not over-centering because it is on backwards or because it's the wrong lever.
            Fifth; put the trans in Neutral
            disconnect that link-rod from the shifter. Now shift it into reverse from the cab and pull it out several times. This to make sure it is not a shifter problem. There are over 40,000 ways to put that shifter back together after a rebuild, and only one is correct.

            THEN
            Part two; internal
            Pull the linkrod off the trans lever, and;
            By hand, shift the reverse lever in and out, sorta gently,attempting to feel resistance. The first time in, the teeth might butt up against each other, so don't count it. But from that point on it should snick in and out nicely. If it does, then the problem is NOT internal , so go back to part one.
            >But if it is still sticky, then drain about half the oil and then back off the reverse detent plug, and repeat the shift test. If now it is free,then lets go after the why of that. The first thing to do is to fish that ball outta there and measure it. IIRC it is supposed to be 3/8 inch. A too-small ball can jam up the internal comb if it comes out to far down there. The next thing is to make sure there is exactly ONE gasket on the whatchamacallit spring-tube, and last;make sure the spring is not crippled somehow. If the spring tube has been withdraw too far off the comb, by perhaps too thick a gasket, then the ball can try to sneak out the bottom. A correctly sized ball cannot actually get out, but a too-small one might try to.
            >But if it is still sticky; Now the cover bolts have to come out,so drain the rest of the oil. Then remove all but the two bolts beside the reverse lever on the horizontal run. Once all the shouldered bolts are out,loosen the last two plain bolts just a smidge, enough to bop the cover up. It will now move quite a ways. Keep it up and tighten those two enough to keep the cover up. Then try the reverse lever again, now with the reverse detent plug completely off.Ok now we have eliminated the interloc, the detent, and all external possible sources.
            >But if it is still sticky then there is only one thing left; the gear is sticking on the shaft, or the shift-fork is sticking in it's boss, or the internal lever is sticking in it's bore, or the comb is rubbing on something. Since there are only two bolts holding the cover on, it would be easy to just pull it off,and check all that internal stuff. And if you find the problem there, then, there is only one cure..... complete tear down,to remedy it.

            Ok, I think I covered it all, so good luck.
            Well I thought of one more but if no parts were changed, it's irrelevant,lol.
             
            Last edited: May 21, 2018
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            • AJ/FormS

              AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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              Wait what? 40,000 ways? You think I'm kidding right? There are actually more ways than that. IIRC there are 3 levers and 4 shims plus the assembled shift mech,totaling 8 pieces. So to assemble it, you pick a part and lay it in the housing, then you pick another part, and so on. So for the first piece you have eight choices, then seven, and six and so on. Doing the math then; there are 8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1=40320 different possible ways to assemble it.
              Some of them however are intuitive, and the assembler would have to not be very bright to mix them up. Like the two short levers and the shift mech. If you call that one choice,with two choices for where the levers go; then you have (2)x5x4x3x2x1= 240 different ways left.
              But if you realize that two of the shims only fit in one location each and only orient in one direction, that changes the total number of choices from 8 to 6, and so now it looks like this; (2)x3x2x1=12 different ways left.
              There is one piece in there that only fits in one location, anyone can see that, but it fits two ways so then it looks like this; (2)x2x1x2=10 different ways.
              Of course the shift mech itself can orient in two directions, as can the levers, so that comes to 40320 x2x2x2=322,560 different possible ways, gross; and 10x2x2x2=80 net.
              I'll tell you what, the first time I ever took one of those apart, it was getting a little frustrating before I finally got it. I highly recommend anyone contemplating this that they take pictures.
              Those shifters are remarkably resistant to dust water and dirt, even gravel.
              There are only two or three parts in there that can make trouble; namely the shift mech........... with the reverse lock-out in it, and the center spacer.The rest will last practically forever
               
              Last edited: May 21, 2018
            • clifftt

              clifftt Well-Known Member

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              Back from a nice wedding, and a birthday afternoon with my kids at a local brewery (Kudo's to Calicraft in Walnut Creek!!) Tonight, back under the car to check it out.

              And that wraps up today's lesson in Combinations and Permutations!
               
            • 66fs

              66fs Well-Known Member

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              Upon reflection, the only thing I would recommend trying now would to be to replace the rear middle “locating” shoulder bolt with a standard bolt, the same length and threads. Then see if you can tap the rear of the side plate up to see if you can get reverse to play nice. Since it worked well before, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.
               
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              • Marcohotrod

                Marcohotrod Well-Known Member

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                maybe remove both shoulder bolts and tap up
                 
              • clifftt

                clifftt Well-Known Member

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                OK, think I’m good now.
                I loosened all cover bolts and disconnected the reverse lever at the cover. I was able to push the cover up. I tightened the two side shoulder bolts. I put the reverse lever back on, tested it out and got more good shifts out of it this time, but then it locked again.
                I pulled the reverse lever back off and put a 1/4” wrench on the reverse lever shaft, and I was able to go back and forth into neutral and reverse, counted 30 times with no problem. Now I’m thinking it’s the shifter.
                Got my home made tool (pictured in post 16), tried putting it thru the shifter slot in neutral, and ... no go! I ended up putting two more turns on the reverse rod to get the tool to slide good into the shifter slot.
                Problem solved (for now, at least). In retrospect, I think it was a combination of the two issues, the cover and the reverse rod both needing a little adjustment.
                What I didn’t understand was how barely loosening the cover and pushing up could possibly help. After finding and watching the Chrysler filmstrip, all your advice posts made sense.
                Thanks guys!!!!!
                 
              • RustyRatRod

                RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                Then why did you disagree with the post, dummy?
                 
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                • j par

                  j par Well-hung Member

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                  I don't know what you're talking about!? But now I am! You better check Post 31 where I basically gave you full credit for teaching me this trick and totally getting me out of a complete Jam dummie! LOL
                   
                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                  I was talkin about where you disagreed with a post earlier in the thread. Was tryin to figure that out......but that's your trademark. lol
                   
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                  • j par

                    j par Well-hung Member

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                    Now if I to disagree with you twice because you keep calling me out on something that doesn't exist! Your first comment on this thread that I could find was you saying I disagreed with you? Can you point out what post I disagreed with besides these last two? Where you called me saying that I disagreed with you? Again what post was that that I disagreed with you? Because now you got me going back and forth through this whole thread and I can't see any comment that you made. Unless you have a different Persona out here and I disagreed with that? I guess I'm trying to say is what the hell are you talking about?
                     
                  • RustyRatRod

                    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                    No dummy. I said you disagreed with another member in this thread. Not me. Dangit you're thick.

                    Look at post #2 dingbat. You're listed as disagreeing. Makes no sense. Again, that's normal. lol
                     
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                    • Jadaharabi

                      Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      But in post #9 Jpar Embraces it as a Wonder cure. Maybe his fat fingers hit the disagree button accidentally.
                       
                    • RustyRatRod

                      RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. Technical Editor

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                      Him? Make a mistake? Yeah right! lol
                       
                    • Jadaharabi

                      Jadaharabi FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      Rusty, Rusty,Rusty Give the man a break after all he loves his dogs his wife and Mopars.

                      Not necessarily in that order.