aluminum rocker arm question

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New poster here, was looking for a little advice.
I'm building a 414 small block with edelbrock aluminum heads and PRW aluminum rocker arm kit. I was wondering how much side play is recommended for each pair of rocker arms between the stands. The way I have them shimmed right now, checking with a dial indicater, I have between .010-.013 per pair. On the outer and very center stands, the shims butt against the stand of the head (not the hold downs). I was wondering with the combination of the aluminum rockers and aluminum head if this was enough clearance after thermal expansion.
Anyone with experience setting these up?
 
i thought the standard was .015...i do know individuals who go as tight as .006
i'm sure someone on here knows what's best.
 
We set up our PRW AL rockers with .016-.017" side play per pair of rockers between the rocker stands. One thing that will help you with the Edelbrock heads is that the heads and rockers both AL so the expansion rates work together. Too tight and the oil flow may be too limited.

As far as the shims up against the rocker stand in some places, we had to file off the sides of the rocker stands a bit so that the shims could rest against the hold downs, and not the rocker stands. If not, then the shims would get cocked a bit, and, as you found, we could not get the side clearances up to the level we did.

We also had to pay attention to the length of the hold-down studs in the inserts in the Edelbrock rocker stands. We wanted full engagement of the studs in the inserts' threads for best load distribution of the spring and pushrod pressures against the inserts. The supplied studs were a bit too short so we got some grade 8 Dorman ones and modified them to fit better.

We also modded the PRW AL rockers themselves for some oil flow to the valve side; these don't have oiling direct to the roller axle like other models. See here if you are interested: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=329907&highlight=prw
 
We set up our PRW AL rockers with .016-.017" side play per pair of rockers between the rocker stands. One thing that will help you with the Edelbrock heads is that the heads and rockers both AL so the expansion rates work together. Too tight and the oil flow may be too limited.

As far as the shims up against the rocker stand in some places, we had to file off the sides of the rocker stands a bit so that the shims could rest against the hold downs, and not the rocker stands. If not, then the shims would get cocked a bit, and, as you found, we could not get the side clearances up to the level we did.

We also had to pay attention to the length of the hold-down studs in the inserts in the Edelbrock rocker stands. We wanted full engagement of the studs in the inserts' threads for best load distribution of the spring and pushrod pressures against the inserts. The supplied studs were a bit too short so we got some grade 8 Dorman ones and modified them to fit better.

We also modded the PRW AL rockers themselves for some oil flow to the valve side; these don't have oiling direct to the roller axle like other models. See here if you are interested: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=329907&highlight=prw

Ditto
Except my,direct-from-Chrysler, blue-anodized,roller-tips-only,and blue-anodized hold-downs, are set up a skosh tighter.
 
I appreciate all responses. After spending alot of time tinkering with everything, I ended up between .015-.017. I'm going with that.
By the way, great site. Looks like a wealth of information here.
 
Tinkering... that is what we did with our PRW's LOL.... Not just a 'bolt-on-and-go' set of rockers.
 
Tinkering... that is what we did with our PRW's LOL.... Not just a 'bolt-on-and-go' set of rockers.
I would argue that no roller rocker on a Mopar single shaft system is a bolt on and go where proper geometry is concerned. Not to be argumentative, of course.:)
 
Funny thing was that the PRW AL tip contact geometry was pretty darned good right out of the box for our lift levels in the low 500's on Edelbrock Performers... that was the one parameter that went "Good. Check the box and move on" LOL
 
Yes, I know the contact looks pretty good when on the seat, but not so much at full lift. Of course, that's no different than some of the pricier, well known brands. I don't mind the roller not being perfectly centered, as long as it doesn't travel across a bunch of the valve tip real estate. The effective geometry I'm trying to achieve is when the sweep across the tip is at the minimum possible for a given rocker and valve lift. For example, a small block with the PRW Aluminum rockers in question, would only sweep across the valve about .034" with .600" net lift. That also has an effect on accelerations, decelerations, and velocities in the valvetrain that wreck parts in a hurry. I wish it was as easy as bolt on and go. It would save a lot of time.
 

Well, .030 to .040 sweep was about what I was measuring at .550" so we could let it go at that for our lower lift. I was happy to have that OOTB. It seemed to match up pretty well on those particular heads, almost like they used that for the design of the heads. Which kinda makes sense, as the Edelbrock Performer heads are set to go up to .575" lift OOTB.
 
nm9, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, so don't take it that way. Being a valvetrain guy, when I see/hear certain things, it raises a red flag and makes me ask questions. Again, not to put you on the spot, but to provoke thought that leads to logical conclusions.

First, how does the rocker arm design relate to a particular valve lift? The rocker is rotating on an axis, so shouldn't it be capable of any practical valve lift, at least within the capability of the spring installed and coil bind height?

Second, was the cylinder head designed for .575" lift, and what design parameters make that case?

Third, and last for now, when you measured the sweep on your example, did you measure it with an indicator of the roller centerline, or was it the width of the wipe pattern on the valve tip? The rocker is supposed to roll outward, and then roll backward the exact same amount when lifting the valve, and then repeat the process when closing the valve. Four cycles, out-in, out-in. In most cases, the valve is mostly sweeping out when opening, and back in when closing. That drastically increases the sweep and causes stability issues.

When I ran the numbers for the Edelbrock heads, with the PRW rockers, and .550" lift, the math shows .089" sweep, which is is within a thou or two of the numbers I have found in the past with that combination.

Just for pleasant arguments sake, .040" would be correct for .660" lift with that combo, and with .550" lift it should only be .028". With the .089" sweep, the valve lift would have to be .975", and you would have to do it with a standard length valve, which would be impossible. I've had to move the rocker shafts as much as .275" to get the geometry right with this very combination.

If it was just about sweep, I suppose one could live with the accelerated guide wear, but there is more to it than that. When the rocker is not doing the proper in-out motions, it screws with the velocities during the lift cycle. It should be, seat, out=accelerate, in=decelerate, full lift, out=accelerate, in=decelerate, back to seat. The decelerations, approaching max lift and the seat, minimize the risk of valve float and bounce and the resulting failures. The accelerations help get the valve open quicker and dwell longer at higher lifts where there is more curtain area for the heads to breathe.

One last thing, it isn't the rocker arm brand that causes this problem. It is the fact that it has a roller tip. Any brand roller rocker will need to have this effective geometry corrected because the roller as well as some other specs like net valve lift play a role. I'm actually a dealer for PRW, and they work very well in a lot of applications when properly setup. I used them for an example, because that is what the OP was using. Other brands, from the cheapest to the most expensive single shaft systems, have very similar results when just bolted onto the cast stands.

I'm just trying to get the word out that you can't use a lot of the information about mopar valvetrains that has been around for fifty years. It simply defies science, math, and the dyno.
 
Good info. Well, I THOUGHT I measured a much lower sweep and am pretty careful with measurements. I was prepared to find much more, or to find whatever it truly was, but was surprised. So I can't throw any added light on that difference. Are we talking about the same PRW rockers, the AL ones for SBM, and not the SS ones? If I can find any notes from that when I get home, I will see what I recorded. (It would not be the first time I confused something....)

As for the .575", lift limit on the Edelbrock Performer heads for SBM, I can't recall this moment (on the road, working) if it is the spring bind or the guide/seal/retainer. This number is Edelbrock's own 'as manufactured' spec for valve lift limit as they assemble it with their standard parts.

All understood on this end BTW on the accelerations, velocities, etc., I actually started writing my own excel program to try to calculate the velocities and energies and such in a valvetrain... I might actually finish it some year!

I am not sure I am understanding the point on the geometries and different rockers.... I can see differences in the rocker design and the geometry for the same application; they should rotate on the same axis but the roller axis angle to the main rotating axis can be different at rest (as could the adjusters ball center position), and all that would change the geometry.... let me know if you think (or know, as you may) this is not correct. I may not be seeing your point correctly.

It is an interesting subject. (To me at least....)
 
I haven't tried the aluminum but I did get lucky finding a piece of thin wall pipe that was perfect for making shims.
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I'm referring to the aluminum PRW rockers. The stainless rockers would have slightly less sweep because of a difference in specs.

The point I was trying to make about the heads, was that the head wasn't designed for a specific valve lift, but rather designed to duplicate a stock head (with improvements), and the lift limitations are a result of the components Edelbrock decided to use as standard equipment. A change in valve length, retainer height, coil bind height, or lock groove location will make those numbers change.

The accelerations and velocities are actually dictated by the lobe design of the camshaft, but incorrect valvetrain geometry will induce additional undesirable characteristics into the accelerations and velocities of the valve that are not proportional to the cam lobe. That's where instability starts becoming a problem.

The point I was trying to get across on the geometry is that a roller rocker has different geometric points than a stock rocker. On a stock rocker, the point of rotation on the valve side is the contact area between the rocker tip and the valve tip. On a roller rocker, that point is at the centerline of the rollers axle, effectively making the valve tip longer. Any change in net valve lift from stock will also change the geometry( four equal cycles), and require the rocker shaft to be relocated to equalize those cycles. As far as the location of the roller on the valve tip, that is nothing but the designed fulcrum length in the rocker. Change the length, move the roller. Unfortunately, the running engine could care less whether the roller is centered or not. It sees the accelerations, decelerations, and the velocities at the valve, whether the roller is centered or not. This is why I don't worry about the roller being dead center on the valve. In anything less than a small stemmed, titanium valved, 800+ lift, 800+lb spring pressure environment, it doesn't matter.

On the adjuster side, you are pretty much out of luck, because the angle and placement of the adjuster is designed into the rocker and can't be easily changed. It is the least important of the two sides though, and has much less of a negative effect on the velocities. Considering that almost every Mopar rocker is incorrect on the adjuster side, I get the valve side correct, and then run the longest pushrod possible to minimize ratio loss from the incorrect angle. For what it's worth, I almost never use a ball type adjuster with a cup pushrod. You can't get even somewhat decent pushrod geometry with them when the valve side is correct.
 
I haven't tried the aluminum but I did get lucky finding a piece of thin wall pipe that was perfect for making shims.
vbpgimage.php
Man, you are asking for trouble. Shims are a bad idea all around. They do next to nothing for geometry, and they increase the radius of the shaft. When you tighten the shafts down, it tries to wedge that extra radius into the stand, and will probably split them right down the middle. That is not a repair you want to do. I broke a really nice set of 915 BB heads that way, and I know many others who did the same thing.
 
To me it appears he's talking about shimming between the arms.Still not the best idea cuz pipe is usually pretty soft.

No, he is talking about the piece of tube he has around the shaft to move the shaft up.

It's a sure way to bust the head, and, it didn't correct the geometry.
 
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