any 225 performance ideas

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Now for your particular swap I think it's pretty straightforward. I won't say for sure since early a is my more my world.
 
/6 Matt said:
Don't expect any power improvements without shaving, milling, boring and headwork.

Sorry to pop your bubble.
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I under stand that will have to be done .... I just can't do it my self I'd have to find some one with the proper tools for that.

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Wrencher said:
A few counterpoints to consider on the novel that really does seem to prove that there is something out there for anyone.

Bill, how long has it taken to build that slant? You have more vision and patience than most do. If he goes down that road it will invariably end 3 years later with nothing more than a head full of ideas and a car that hasn't run in that long. He can have a 360 in it and running in a weekend and with minimal retrofitting.

I can tell you with no fingers the exact number of times I have come across a grand national in a wrecking yard. I'd imagine that even if you did, the turbo is long gone.

The world of forced induction is very different and marches to the beat of a very different drummer than what most people are used to. I think it's a must that before going a route like that to see what kind of local support is available. It will not be the guy who gave you the engine, I'm sure.

The videos you have linked so proudly stating your point do not take into account the work and money that went into building those things. They are the extreme outer limit of what a slant is technically capable of. Those guys probably have years of experience and have spent 5 times the money this guy has in MISTAKES and various failed combos.

Put a cam in the slant (at about 3 times the cost of a small block), and run a larger exhaust system and see what you think about the gains. I suspect you are not going to be very thrilled. There will be a ton of 4 cylinders out there that would outpace you. You wouldn't like that. There's always the $400 headers or the $800 option of the dutra duals. The latter looks so nice btw, but $800 is just silly. Just putting one on and loping the ugly original manifold just looks terrible in my opinion.

So at the end of the day bucking the system is cool and all, but it doesn't equate to the right answer for everyone who comes here looking for sound advise on how to make a slant powerful. At the end of the day, it's not worth the time money and work required to make the slant a powerhouse.
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Good points all, and no apology necessary; this is a discussion, and if we all agreed, there would be no discusssion, so no problemo!
 
Wrencher said:
Now for your particular swap I think it's pretty straightforward. I won't say for sure since early a is my more my world.
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its 125 for a slant cam to your door with springs and lifters... dont make up numbers just because you dont think a slant is worth it, use real reasons. i already posted what he needs to do for his price range for the most go.
 
Charrlie_S said:
ICE, How much work can you do yourself? What condition is the engine in now? Is fuel mileage an issue, what about octane rating of the fuel? That will make a difference with your budget. 250-300hp is not realistic, more likely around 200 hp. Only do the slant, because it is different, and "neat". If you want big hp, don't even swap to a V-8, swap to a V-8 car, it would be less money.

If your short block is in good condition, remove the head, and mill it (get the compression up to about 9 or 9.5 to 1, depending on what fuel you are willing to buy). Install over size valves and hardened sxhaust valve seats. Do some "pocket" porting ( no need to go crazy on porting, basically a street motor, just blend the bowls). Install a cam (specs based on the compression ratio used, and gear ratio/ converter stall speed). If staying with a mild build, consider a "super six" 2bbl setup, or a Offie manifold, with a small 4bbl carb. I don't like headers on a street driver, they are noisy, leak, rust out, no manifold heat, etc. I would recommend something like Dutra Duals, or a exhaust like Waggon made for Memike.
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Thank you Charrlie_S. and :hello2:
It's the love and want to have a /6 car and the earlier the better because of how much lighter they are :glasses7:
I would think that the year model and chassis a V8 swap would be straight forward, much easier that converting an early A to a V8.
I don't race my car, but it will get out of it's own way better then it did with
all the advice I was given by these great folks.
Victoria is always under construction, she is not dun yet and I keep driving her on the stock 68.000 mile 170/6, but if I put 500 lbs on her she would have problems stopping and going. I believe my 66 is about 400 lbs lighter then your Duster, if not more.
I have dun all the up grades that the techs have said here in this thread, Plugs, Carb, Exhaust, Electronic ignition, provided cool fresh air and it made a great improvement on the seat of the pants hp and reliability and even mpg.
But I have yet to move forward on opening the engine.
I am stretching my build allong :D One step at a time and drive it :coffee2:
 
Wrencher said:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp-Cams/249/K64-247-4/10002/-1
Most people shop here lest I'm mistaking. There's a good start.

Lets say for a minute that it costs HALF.... You still won't be happy with its output.
Make up numbers..... Your too funny kid.

Your setup is still not going to be better than the most mild v8.
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you cant run comp stuff as they nitride their cams. it will eat the oil pump gear in the first 1K miles.

i bought my erson solid flat with matching springs and lifters for 125. OCG will do regrinds for 79 bucks, just because comp F**k's us dosn't mean we have to use it.

and no, with that budget it wont be better than probably a stock 360, or a mild 273/318, but compared to stock it will be huge! and after a good tune and sorting it out it will be able to do mid 20's MPG...

and there alot of us slant guys that out run mild v8's...
 
Wrencher said:
A few counterpoints to consider on the novel that really does seem to prove that there is something out there for anyone.

Bill, how long has it taken to build that slant? You have more vision and patience than most do. If he goes down that road it will invariably end 3 years later with nothing more than a head full of ideas and a car that hasn't run in that long. He can have a 360 in it and running in a weekend and with minimal retrofitting.

I can tell you with no fingers the exact number of times I have come across a grand national in a wrecking yard. I'd imagine that even if you did, the turbo is long gone.

The world of forced induction is very different and marches to the beat of a very different drummer than what most people are used to. I think it's a must that before going a route like that to see what kind of local support is available. It will not be the guy who gave you the engine, I'm sure.

The videos you have linked so proudly stating your point do not take into account the work and money that went into building those things. They are the extreme outer limit of what a slant is technically capable of. Those guys probably have years of experience and have spent 5 times the money this guy has in MISTAKES and various failed combos.

Put a cam in the slant (at about 3 times the cost of a small block), and run a larger exhaust system and see what you think about the gains. I suspect you are not going to be very thrilled. There will be a ton of 4 cylinders out there that would outpace you. You wouldn't like that. There's always the $400 headers or the $800 option of the dutra duals. The latter looks so nice btw, but $800 is just silly. Just putting one on and loping the ugly original manifold just looks terrible in my opinion.

So at the end of the day bucking the system is cool and all, but it doesn't equate to the right answer for everyone who comes here looking for sound advise on how to make a slant powerful. At the end of the day, it's not worth the time money and work required to make the slant a powerhouse.
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Words of wisdom right there. Couldn't have written it better if I tried. Well said.
On top of all that,installed in a big bumper,heavy,late model Duster. No thanks.
 
ice7891 said:
Ok I see now that it may not be the best way to stay in budget with the slant 6 .... But iv never converted a car from a 6 to an 8 and to be honest woud have no idea were to start... What I could keep and what needs to be replaced..... I'm self taught on the things I do know but I'm young and don't have as much expearance as I'd like to have....


As for the rear end I'm not shure iv never touched it.... : /

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No disrespect,but if you can't do a simple engine swap,turboing the little leaner
ain't going to happen.
 
i agree im not ready to try a turbo :???:.... and i never said i cant do an engine swap... i have just only replaced motors with the same motor... that's easy... what i dont know id if i put say a 360 in do i need the k frame or are conversion mounts ok.... should i replace the shocks and springs or are the ones from the six enough sense its a kinda heavy motor .... and were a can find a new drive shaft because i assume it will need to be shorter....those types of things are my concerns.
 
ice7891 said:
i agree im not ready to try a turbo :???:.... and i never said i cant do an engine swap... i have just only replaced motors with the same motor... that's easy... what i dont know id if i put say a 360 in do i need the k frame or are conversion mounts ok.... should i replace the shocks and springs or are the ones from the six enough sense its a kinda heavy motor .... and were a can find a new drive shaft because i assume it will need to be shorter....those types of things are my concerns.
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they weight almost the same
 
I like the turbo thing. If I could find somebody to weld on a turbo flange for me, I would probably do a turbo slant rat rod.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I like the turbo thing. If I could find somebody to weld on a turbo flange for me, I would probably do a turbo slant rat rod.
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For a mild street type turbo setup, you don't need a turbo flange. Just use a "J" pipe off the stock manifold. I did my turbo back in 1979, when there was no turbo information readily available. I used a junkyard corvair turbo, on a 170 slant, in a 65 Valiant. I did have many problems with the "tuneup", as there was no one to get advice from. But I drove the car from 1979 to 1985. It would run mid to low 13's at over 100 mph in the quarter, and get about 18 mpg on the street. It is actually easier to do a turbo, now, if you stay conservative. I still have the car and am refreshing the engine, and body.

Also my 66 Valiant was built for under $2,000 including buying the car, and it will run mid 14's in the quarter, on motor, and low 13's on the bottle. However it is not street legal.
 
wrencher said:
I was remiss in my response to you; i need to answer your questions so you better understand where i am coming from.

#1:

"Bill, how long has it taken to build that slant?"

Too long (4 years, at last count.) but, that question is not really that easy to answer, because "build that slant" is only a part of what we did during that four years. First off, we are a couple of o-l-d duffers (my partner, Freddie and me, who share this project.) i'm 74 and he's 75. We weren't that old when we started it, but we get older all the time, it seems... :sad11:

That makes us s-l-o-w... Real slow!

The car (the one in my avatar,) we found to put this engine in, was sitting out in a field, under a tree, hadn't moved, for fifteen years and was totally worn-out. It needed everything... We replaced the front suspension with a tubular a-frame setup, disc brakes, the windsheld, the rear end (a '68 b-body, 8.75",) the axles in that rear end, (Yukon,) had custom-offset wheels made, (8"-wide, 15", BBP,) put a fiberglass hood on it, sawed the front bumper to make room for the front-mounted air-to-air intercooler, added a roll bar, moved the battery to the trunk, added a fuel cell, built a complete fuel system (electric pump, return line, 2 filters, and regulator,) installed racing buckets. And new carpet... Re-did the dash with several gauges, installed a floor-mounted, Turbo-Action cable-activated shifter...

You get the idea... There as lots of bodywork (small dings) to deal with, plus the left quarter-panel had to be replaced before the car went to the paint shop.

Nobody, but nobody makes a header for a turbocharged slant six, so Freddie "manufactured" one himself, and did a creditable job, considering he had no experience, a pacemaker and cannot be in close-proximity to a welder; he used adhesive tape to attach all the individual pieces of tubing together and paid a guy to spot weld them 'til we could get the thing to a t.i.g. machine. We got it t.i.g.'ed and then drove it 150-miles to a coating shop and had it ceramic coated, inside and out, then drove the 150 miles back (one-way) and picked it up. Time-consuming.

I am only telling you this to explain that building that engine didn't actually take us four year; building the car and the engine, did. Oh and, BTW, the car and Freddie's shop are located in Little Rock, while I make my residence in Conway, a 70-mile round trip anytime I want to work on the car. Not the handiest of situations.

The torque converter took extra time because we needed one that would fit a late model transmission input shaft, but had an early, small snout (to fit an early, forged, crank.) 3,000 rpm stall. Hughes...

Acquiring a new aluminum radiator, building the brackets for,and wiring an electric water pump, and installing Cal-Tracs and 4 new shocks took some time, too.

It was a lot more involved than if we'd just bought a "roller" and only had to build an engine. That's my story, and i'm stickin' to it!


#2, Not really a question, but needs an explanation, anyway.

You said, "I can tell you with no fingers the exact number of times i have come across a grand national in a wrecking yard. I'd imagine that even if you did, the turbo is long gone."

While that is true as far as it goes, Tom Wolfe (Shaker223 on FABO) managed to find one in a junk yard for his car, and he's just an individual, not "someone in the business," so-to-speak. Failing that, there are a lot of Grand National owners who upgrade their OEM systems, and sell their "old" stock turbos to get money to help buy a new, larger unit. They advertise these on the turbo Buick forum in the classified section.... Frequently. buying a used Grand National turbo isn't all that hard, apparently. The turbo "community" is expanding exponentially, and sources like ebay are becoming more numerous every day. Gaining access to a "right-size" turbo wouldn't be as much of a problem, nowadays, as it would have been 5 years ago, i think. Wouldn't have to be off a Buick...

#3

You opined, "so at the end of the day bucking the system is cool and all, but it doesn't equate to the right answer for everyone who comes here looking for sound advise on how to make a slant powerful. At the end of the day, it's not worth the time money and work required to make the slant a powerhouse."

Once again, what you say is right-on as far as it goes. Turbos are definitely not for everyone, as they require more than-average mechanical skills in the tuning department and that includes a thorough understanding of the operation of forced induction, a protocol not everyone is ready to embrace. They are not all that "easy"....

However, i can't agree that "at the end of the day, it's not worth the time money and work required to make the slant a powerhouse."

I pointed out just the opposite in that wordy, long-winded diatribe I wrote about the various advantages/disadvantages of building a boosted slant six as an alternative to swapping a normally-aspirated small block V8 of equal power, into a Mopar a-body.

In the final analysis, i believe i was successful in my contention that the smart money was on the hairdryer-equipped six. If I was not, I'd like to hear why not. I tried hard not to write anything that wasn't true.

My main observation is that the cylinder head that a slant six is saddled with ("saddled with," because there are no viable alternatives forthcoming from Edelbrock, etc.) causes it to be a non-player in the hp department, normally-aspirated. The best you can hope for, after adding an expensive ($1300.00) ported head, a cam, a 4bbl, headers and higher compression, is about 250 hp, which will put you into the low 14's, but probably no quicker. I am talking a car that weighs 3300-pounds, which is what most A-bodies weigh (although the earlier cars are lighter than that.) the '68 that the 305moparkid runs fits that category. Please, correct me if i am wrong, Ed. I know the early Valiant of that racer from L-A, (Guzzi Mark) runs really fast "on the motor," but it only weighs 2,300... not 3,300.

A hairdryer-equipped slant six, , running 10 pounds of boost through a holley 2bbl on a super six manifold will run that fast on pump gas with a stock head and cam... Seems like a no-brainer to me.
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Wrencher said:
Put a cam in the slant (at about 3 times the cost of a small block), and run a larger exhaust system and see what you think about the gains. I suspect you are not going to be very thrilled. There will be a ton of 4 cylinders out there that would outpace you. You wouldn't like that.
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Well, if the OP wants to race (legally or otherwise), that's true. On the other hand, I'm quite happy with my hopped-up slant. Makes good power (to me), it's fun to drive (to me), and I could care less about being faster than the guy in the other lane, as long as I enjoy driving it. Unlike most folks around here, a V-8 is overkill for me.

Wrencher said:
There's always the $400 headers or the $800 option of the dutra duals. The latter looks so nice btw, but $800 is just silly. Just putting one on and loping the ugly original manifold just looks terrible in my opinion.
Click to expand...

??? My Dutra front manifold cost me $300 from Doug Dutra himself, and modifying the rear manifold cost me $40. And I could care less if someone doesn't like how my exhaust manifolds "look".

Granted, the OP sounds like a V8 swap candidate if I ever heard one. Generally, someone who pulls arbitrary horsepower goals out of the air will never be happy with a slant in any condition. Let's face it, forced induction ain't for newbies. But if the OP would adjust his goals a bit and take the opportunity to learn about engines in general, he could make an easy 200hp and have a fun little car.

But ICE, if your skill level is fairly low and want something you can beat up on other cars with, I'd recommend the V8 swap. If you're unsure about the difficulty of a V8 swap, then getting 250 hp out of a slant is also beyond your skill level.
 
My problem is I just don't have enough specific knowledge about turbos. I know theory and such, but with turbos, I have little experience.

Charrlie_S said:
For a mild street type turbo setup, you don't need a turbo flange. Just use a "J" pipe off the stock manifold. I did my turbo back in 1979, when there was no turbo information readily available. I used a junkyard corvair turbo, on a 170 slant, in a 65 Valiant. I did have many problems with the "tuneup", as there was no one to get advice from. But I drove the car from 1979 to 1985. It would run mid to low 13's at over 100 mph in the quarter, and get about 18 mpg on the street. It is actually easier to do a turbo, now, if you stay conservative. I still have the car and am refreshing the engine, and body.

Also my 66 Valiant was built for under $2,000 including buying the car, and it will run mid 14's in the quarter, on motor, and low 13's on the bottle. However it is not street legal.
Click to expand...
 
RustyRatRod said:
My problem is I just don't have enough specific knowledge about turbos. I know theory and such, but with turbos, I have little experience.
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Rob its one of those learn as you go things but I'm hereto tell you once you go forced induction there's no going back to natural aspirations. The power levels are unbelievable..
Aaron
 
srixon4406 said:
Rob its one of those learn as you go things but I'm hereto tell you once you go forced induction there's no going back to natural aspirations. The power levels are unbelievable..
Aaron
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Yeah, if you have a turbo, a 4bbl manifold and carb, a ported head and alcohol/water injection, you can make 350hp on pump gas all day long on just 10 pounds of boost... a power level that is very difficult to achieve, normally-aspirated with a 225.
 
spikekid999 said:
so whats the ideal amount to shave the head? 80 or 100 thousands?

also what size valves?
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idealy none, you want it all off the block, but .080 to .100 is common, im at .113 on the head and .027 on the head for 10:1 with .080 over pistons

and ebay enginebuilder valves 1.7/1.44
 
ice7891 said:
should i replace the shocks and springs or are the ones from the six enough sense its a kinda heavy motor .... and were a can find a new drive shaft because i assume it will need to be shorter....those types of things are my concerns.
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IIRC, the 225/6 w/ A/C used the same TBs as the 318 non-A/C cars did. The 318 w/ A/C used the same TBs as the 340/360 cars. No bigger bars were fitted on 340/360 cars w/ A/C. This is kind of a commentary on what Mopar thought about the weight disparity among the vehicles.

If you are keeping the same kind of transmission and rear end assembly, you do not need to change the drive shaft. If a change is made, find a drive shaft that is as long as the one you have now and have it shortened.

Besides the usual suspects to do the work, if you live in farm country, a farm equipment guy may be able to help. There are lots of different types of farm equipment that have jack shafts. When a farmer can't wait on a shaft to come in from Moline to get his harvest in.... you get the idea. I found a truck repair shop to do mine for the 8.75 I'm putting in the Demon.
 
805moparkid said:
idealy none, you want it all off the block, but .080 to .100 is common, im at .113 on the head and .027 on the head for 10:1 with .080 over pistons

and ebay enginebuilder valves 1.7/1.44
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Well shot
Everything I've been reading I was under the impression they were getting the head milled n not the block
Hopefully the six I'm getting ain't in too bad of shape n I can save it
 
ice7891 said:
so i have a 225 /6 out of a 72 dart ...in a 74 duster and im thinkig of putting a cam in it but im not sure what kind of power i can expect from it and if i do put a cam in it i should probably get a 4 bbl intake and headers.... what im really wanting to do is make it a daily driver but still have some fun with it :burnout:. ideally id like to be at 250 to 300 horse and my budget for the motor is about $1500 to $2000... any ideas?
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250-300 is a fully built /6 and turbo is the only real way to get big power and your determined to stay /6 and with your budget which will barely do the basic that you original stated, start with cam, 4bbl, exhaust, ignition and gears it wont be an extreme powerhouse but it will be more of a blast to drive then maybe grab a head out of a scrap yard have it worked over as you can afford it then swap it out.
And if thats not enough turbo always an option down the road, Sometimes people ask for a simple hop up and get talked in a full build its so easy to spend others peoples money and discourage them in the process.
It's better to build your car in simple upgrade if you don't have the cash to do it all at once or you and up with a car sitting on blocks for years dream about driving one day.
 
spikekid999 said:
Well shot
Everything I've been reading I was under the impression they were getting the head milled n not the block
Hopefully the six I'm getting ain't in too bad of shape n I can save it
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most do, but to maximize you want to take it off the block, keeps the valves in the head, and moves the piston up in the bore as its probably close to .180 in the hole.
 
805moparkid said:
most do, but to maximize you want to take it off the block, keeps the valves in the head, and moves the piston up in the bore as its probably close to .180 in the hole.
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But I can get the head milled without issues?
I'm grabbing a slanty that's apparently locked up, but figured I can at least get the head and have it cleaned, preped, milled and possibly bigger valves, then when i get a good running one i can go through it and change out all gaskets and swap the head so there won't be any down time
 
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