Any electricians in the house?

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chlngr1970

chlngr1970

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I currently have two service panels fed by my meter base. One feeds the shop with a grid tied 18.6 KW Solar array, the other feeds the house. Both have a 200A Panel.

First, I'd like to install a portable generator input plug that will be able to allow the solar array to continue to produce when there is a power outage. This is to keep the us enjoying power while they fix whatever caused the outage.

Scond, I'd like to install a battery array to allow me to store some of that power, if the grid goes down. Is it possible to store solar generated power form panels that have micro inverters on the panel?

TIA!

j
 
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Much simpler is to back feed your home with a 220v generator. Electricians install a lock out box so that you do not feed electrical power back out onto the grid when they are working on it.

I backfed my home during last Summer's power outtage/storm with a 30 amp line from my generator to my 220v dryer outlet. I also have a main Shut Off Disconnect switch on my power pole, and also turn off the main breaker in the house to prevent any backfeed to the grid.

Screenshot_20220205-010600_Gallery.jpg

This 5500 watt 220v volt generator below will work too.

Screenshot_20220205-010659_Gallery.jpg


Nothing so sweet as when the power goes out, to fire up the generator and you are back in business again.

☆☆☆☆☆
 
Playing with mains power and not being an electrician, is not the same as changing spark plugs without a mechanic.

My advice is to get an electrician to take a look at your system......before we lose another member here.
 
Check your power company rules.

They typically have a published public document like an Electrical Service Requirements. And search their website for “Generator switch”

Rules here are a mechanical switch that can only connect between Power Company OR generator. Never both at same time. Installed after the meter.
 
Local laws dictate what you can and can't legally modify. A licensed and bonded electrician is worth whatever they charge for an hour consultation. Safety first, Brother, for you and the lineman.
 
This is not a DIY project. Alot of lineman get hurt and electrocuted from power lines getting back-fed by portable generators during outages.
Its a common mistake by homeowners to forget to manually shutoff the panels main breaker, before feeding the panel. Its easy to overlook, especially when the panel is already dead.
The proper way to feed your single panel is with a generator transfer switch.
Joe
 
Tesla has a package that does what you want to do. It's called the home something or other. I saw it at a tesla dealership in California.
 
chlngr1970 said:
I currently have two service panels fed by my meter base. One feeds the shop with a grid tied 18.6 KW Solar array, the other feeds the house. Both have a 200A Panel.

First, I'd like to install a portable generator input plug that will be able to allow the solar array to continue to produce when there is a power outage. This is to keep the us enjoying power while they fix whatever caused the outage.

Scond, I'd like to install a battery array to allow me to store some of that power, if the grid goes down. Is it possible to store solar generated power form panels that have micro inverters on the panel?

TIA!

j
Click to expand...

Wow. What exactly are you trying to do? A one line drawing would be VERY helpful.
 
chlngr1970 said:
I currently have two service panels fed by my meter base. One feeds the shop with a grid tied 18.6 KW Solar array, the other feeds the house. Both have a 200A Panel.

First, I'd like to install a portable generator input plug that will be able to allow the solar array to continue to produce when there is a power outage. This is to keep the us enjoying power while they fix whatever caused the outage.

Scond, I'd like to install a battery array to allow me to store some of that power, if the grid goes down. Is it possible to store solar generated power form panels that have micro inverters on the panel?

TIA!

j
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have one 400A ? main meter panel. Then two 200A sub panels?

The "make or break" transfer switch for a backup generator typically goes right after the meter. But you should consult your electrical company for particulars.

Here's some verbiage some electric companies have for this situation. Research and find what your particular companies or state policy is:

“Backup systems” are generators used by customers to serve part or all of their electrical needs during a power outage. These generators will normally be operated only when electric service is not available. Most backup systems are designed to operate independently from the electric system by using an automatic transfer switch to sense the loss of power from and initiate power use from this generator. Once electric service is restored, the generator’s automatic transfer switch will shift the customer’s usage back and will signal the backup generator to shut-off.

Typically backup generators will use diesel, natural gas, or liquid propane to operate.

Generators operating as a backup system will do so either under a momentary parallel mode or isolated mode:

  • Momentary Parallel operation mode. A backup generator that interconnects and operates on a momentary parallel basis with the electric system for a duration of one (1) second or less through transfer switches or operating schemes specifically designed and engineered for such operation.
  • Isolated operation mode. A backup generator that will be isolated and prevented from becoming interconnected with the electric system through a transfer switch or operating scheme specifically designed and engineered for such operation.
While customers operating backup systems under either momentary parallel or isolated mode are not obligated to enter into an interconnection agreement with the electric company, an application for interconnection still needs to be completed to satisfy the electric company's notice requirements for operating such generating facility.​
 
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Oh my !! I thought I could possibly help till I opened this thread :lol:

Like said above, NOT a DYI project
 
For the few things a portable genny is able to run at a time, just roll out a few cords to the fridge, freezer and a light string when you need it.
 
Here's and example of a "single line" electrical drawing for a system with a generator and transfer switch. It's not rocket science in theory. But physical installation will take some expertise though.

The PE (Professional Engineer) Stamp in lower right corner is only needed when you are tapping in before the main breaker.

This drawing shows tapping in after the main breaker.

upload_2022-2-5_7-59-3.png
 
Yes, that's generic single line but not the OP's setup. The gripe I have with documents such as that one is that the standby generator has to be rated for the full service entrance capacity. For a 200 amp service with a 25% margin that is right at 60 KW with a price tag of about $20K sitting on the pallet. Considering that at half load this is going to consume about 4 gal/hr of propane, how long is that 1000 gallon tank going to last? The devil is always in the details.
 
Joey4speed said:
This is not a DIY project. Alot of lineman get hurt and electrocuted from power lines getting back-fed by portable generators during outages.
Its a common mistake by homeowners to forget to manually shutoff the panels main breaker, before feeding the panel. Its easy to overlook, especially when the panel is already dead.
The proper way to feed your single panel is with a generator transfer switch.
Joe
Click to expand...

hey, i take offence to that!




@chlngr1970 whatever you end up doing, pull a permit and have the inspector sign off on your work
that way, you know it is safe, and if something goes wrong, you are covered
 
6PakBee said:
Yes, that's generic single line but not the OP's setup. The gripe I have with documents such as that one is that the standby generator has to be rated for the full service entrance capacity. For a 200 amp service with a 25% margin that is right at 60 KW with a price tag of about $20K sitting on the pallet. Considering that at half load this is going to consume about 4 gal/hr of propane, how long is that 1000 gallon tank going to last? The devil is always in the details.
Click to expand...

It's an example. Something to get familiar with the basics of a single line drawing. Shows expectations and shows expensive electrical engineer or otherwise isn't always required just to produce this drawing.

We don't know the details of his system enough to draw what he really has anyways.
 
Trying to draw this out in my head are you double tapped of the the bottom of you meter base to each panel. or does it run to one panel then on to the next.
 
6PakBee said:
Wow. What exactly are you trying to do? A one line drawing would be VERY helpful.
Click to expand...
THIS. I don't understand from the OP's description what he is trying to do. If nothing else, scribble up a simple hand drawn--scrap of paper "block diagram" and take a photo of it and post it

.......And I agree with others---this may not be a DIY deal.

I installed a genset feed plug into my house panel with one of the approved mechancial lock deals. It's simple. The genset breaker MUST go in a certain position at the top near the main. You shut off the main, and the lockout slides, allowing the genset breaker to be turned on. Then it's a matter of killing whatever breakers in the panel you do NOT want to feed with the genset. For me this includes the 240 breakers for the water heater, and range.

In my case the meter feeds a panel that supplies the garage, and goes from there underground to the house. Yet the house panel is NOT treated (in this case) like a "sub" panel. This is a big difference. With the house "main" pulled for the genset, there is NO connection to the garage or meter.
 
In some areas, you cannot perform your own electrical work.
Inspectors will only sign off on licensed electricians.
It varies by state and even county by county.
 
Joey4speed said:
In some areas, you cannot perform your own electrical work.
Inspectors will only sign off on licensed electricians.
It varies by state and even county by county.
Click to expand...

That is true. In ND, unless prohibited by another entity, you can get a self-wire permit for anything other than commercial or anything upstream of the service entrance main breaker. There are conditions to getting a self-wire permit such as personal ownership and use among others. Your work has to be inspected by a state electrical inspector or the local electrical inspector if a city does their own inspections. But yes, some ND towns do not allow any electrical work to be done other than by a licensed electrician. Speaking from personal experience as I obtained a self-wire permit when we added an addition to the house and a permit for wiring my shop.
 
I spent about a dozen years in HVAC/R part of which was in Spokane, most of which was with a Lennox dealer in Coeur d Alene. Frankly, I've seen almost as many problems with "licensed" electricians as homeowners. At least in Idaho, "a big thing" for electrical contractors is to hire guys in apprentiship programs, and then (illegally) send them out alone once they have a minimal experience to do "simple" jobs. Bear in mind that sometimes, these guys are supposed to be UNDER SUPERVISION of a qualified more senior electricial

I still remember when the local Chev dealer was doing some remodel of an office space. We had roughed in a new A/C unit, with condensing unit on roof, and also installed a (then these were new) "mini split" unit for a small closet room destined to be for computers.

I had gotten back from a call to our office. The boss directed me to "run down" to this dealership as "the electricians had some question." I don't remember why, but I left my service van at the shop and instead took the shop pickup. I get down to the dealer, here is the situation:

The remodel area was a very small flat roof part of the dealer with a quite low roof, around in back. The electricians had a pickup there, with a camper shell, and NO LADDER. They had backed the pickup under the overhang, and were getting up on the tailgate, then the shell, and then boosting themselves up to the roof, which was at that point about ?? waist or chest high. So that's the FIRST "unprofessional" glitch

But I thought, "well hell" and got up there. The A/C was a compact condenser, and of course so is the mini split and his "question" goes like this:

"Code requires that the disconnect be mounted to the unit and there's no room on it."

I said, "NO, code does NOT require that the disconnect be mounted ON the unit, and if you do, and you damage something, you will be paying for that. Code requires that the disconnect be within sight of and within 50 ft of the unit" (as I recall).

"Well what are we supposed to do". I told them "I don't care if you have to built some sort of stantion or bracket mounted to the roof to put them on, that is your responsibility."

So some days later, I went down to do the startup, and here is what I found.

Yes, there was a shop made stand mounted to the roof, so far so good. Disconnects, and weathertight conduit over to the units, FINE.

But the bracket was so small that getting the door open on one disconnect was difficult (clearance violation), They had lost the dedicated green ground screw on one or both boxes (violation), the green ground was under a mounting screw (violation) and the green ground wire was wrapped BACKWARDS around the "grounding" screw (violation)

On a good note, that outfit later either went out of business, or moved out of town.
 
The OP needs a professional electrical contractor experienced in generator and solar to get what he needs done. I've worked at the power company for 44 years, most of them as a lineman, and seen every kind of dumbass (not accusing anyone here) homeowner generator installations.
1- Saw a homeowner in Tulsa, Ok all excited that the power had come back on, and dumbassed his disconnect procedure on his generator. Blew his own panel up and had to go to the ER for eye injuries.
2- Silsbee, TX in 2005. Because we followed our safety procedures to a T, we burnt down a shed housing one of those big, high dollar Honda generators you can hardly hear run when you're standing right next to it. We made the line hot and smoked the generator we never heard.
3- Found generators backfeeding the lines in Watertown, NY in 1998.
4- Florida 2004. Had to wait on the fire dept. to put out a fire when we had rolled up to put wire back up. Homeowner had rigged up a generator with a drop cord with 2 male ends and didn't cut off the mains. :realcrazy: That fed 120 volts back thru the transformer, which turned that 120 volts into 7200 volts back out the top of the transformer, which fed back onto the line laying on top of a car. Car tires exploded from the high voltage and the car caught on fire....gas tank exploded and started a big fire.
I could list more, but hopefully the above will illustrate the point that any type of alternate energy source needs a failsafe disconnect that is professionally installed.
Good luck to the OP....and just do it right.
 
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