B3 Racing Engines Geometry Kit

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mullinax95

mullinax95

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Recently I added Eddy heads, Air-gap RPM intake, Hughes roller cam and roller lifters to my "LA" 360 engine. The Comp Cam roller rockers that was on the engine are 1.5 ratio and decided to reuse them. I bought these rockers from a member on here at least ten years ago.
After mocking up the valve train and checking the rocker sweep pattern on the valves with a sharpie I wasn't happy with the pattern. The pattern was towards the exhaust side and was wide on top of that. This is with the shafts installed straight to the heads... no shims.
Even though Hughes states that as long as the pattern is no less than .040 from the edge of the valve stem it will work. However it still bothered me that the pattern wasn't centered and wasn't narrow. I went ahead ran the engine and put some miles on her.
As like it was meant to happen I noticed a thread by Mike... at B3 Racing Engines. After that I went to his website and read his Engine Tech Series. After doing the reading I knew he was the one that I needed to talk with in order to straighten out my ordeal. Sent him a email and he gladly answered ALL my questions. I mean he went the extra mile with each and every question.
What I bought from Mike was custom Mopar geometry kit and PRW 1.6 roller rockers. It was like no time at all and everything was at my door step.
Now let me show you what proper geometry looks like!
The first picture is the "before" picture and is the exact rocker sweep. This is not a sharpie marked valve tip... this is the natural sweep on the tips. The second picture is with the geometry kit, and PRW rockers. I was absolutely amazed after removing the rocker arms and shaft to see what the pattern looked like! Daaaammmmmnnnnn!!!!

BEFORE:
IMG_3525_zpsrxkantss.jpg


AFTER:
IMG_3553_zpsbzydwzho.jpg
 
Not sure I am understanding? The 2nd pic looks like valve tip is smashed? I know its not...I'll blame it on my damn phone..lol
 
Does the kit address or make allowances for checking and correcting the mid-lift geometry? I've read about this theory and recently applied it to some rocker arms I modified for a vintage motorcycle. Was pretty easy to check and make adjustments, but that was on a two valve single, a 16 valve V-8 would really be time consuming. Anyone have input on the "mid-lift" theory as it applies to our ohv Mopars?
 
I also just got a kit from Mike and my results are exactly the same. I am running some of the older Hughes 1.6 rockers on trick flow 270's. I couldn't be happier with the results. I have a .715 lift solid roller and that is what my sweep looks like. What more could you ask for?
 
12many said:
Does the kit address or make allowances for checking and correcting the mid-lift geometry? I've read about this theory and recently applied it to some rocker arms I modified for a vintage motorcycle. Was pretty easy to check and make adjustments, but that was on a two valve single, a 16 valve V-8 would really be time consuming. Anyone have input on the "mid-lift" theory as it applies to our ohv Mopars?
Click to expand...
Mike's kit covers the mid lift theory. That is his entire goal with his kits. Go to his website and read his tech articles then give him a call and order what you need. You can go without (like lots of people do) but you'll definitely be giving up stability and durability.
 
Mike is a great guy to work with. I nearly lost a motor due to valve train instability that was a result of weak valve springs and improper rocker geometry, which combined to eat the needle roller bearings out of my exhaust rockers and dump the cage bits into my engine.

Dwayne Porter identified the weak springs and how my intake pushrods were dampened by ever so slightly touching the heads as the reason only the exhaust rockers were damaged. I sent my heads to him for a full hard parts change and head rebuild, and to select a solid roller to replace my hydraulic roller.

Long story shorter, I sent the measurements Mike asked for to him, and he recommended not only his custom adjustment package, but also spec'd out a set of custom designed T&D rockers that optimized the rocker setup for my after market Indy EZ heads. He even had T&D change the angle and position of the adjusters and the offset on the rocker shafts. He knows this stuff!

The results are just as dramatic as what you posted here. I'm still mocking things up, and will post some before and after pics. It's simple mechanical theory, but so many of us just bolt on what we get without ever optimizing the geometry. It does matter.
 
wow, nice improvement, however my question is.....what detrimental effect would one notice if the 1st pattern was left well enough alone? I have to assume that the vast majority of "built" engines share that same 1st pattern???
 
The effect is the valve wears out the guide. The rocker tip is pushing the valve downwards off center or on and off center. That pushes the valve to the side wearing the guide out.

I'd imagine the valve and the seat could also face an issue after a while as well.
And other effects.
 
4spdragtop said:
Not sure I am understanding? The 2nd pic looks like valve tip is smashed? I know its not...I'll blame it on my damn phone..lol
Click to expand...
LOL! I get what you see!
It is a cross between the marker lines, not straight across and not fully covering the tip in a solid black color with the valve tips natural color poking through.

Funny how I seen it until you posted it looked wrecked. Like two pictures in one. Optical illusion!
 
Hell of a before and after difference there. My old pattern was a bit more narrow but well centered. That after shot is what it should be. Looks dead perfect. Blows what I had away and I was pretty proud I got what I got. It was a pain to get on my own.
 
rumblefish360 said:
The effect is the valve wears out the guide. The rocker tip is pushing the valve downwards off center or on and off center. That pushes the valve to the side wearing the guide out.

I'd imagine the valve and the seat could also face an issue after a while as well.
And other effects.
Click to expand...

I would assume likewise....but how much sooner does it wear guides, etc...? My gut tells me it would take substantial mileage (in a stock engine) to notice said effects, and probably sooner with higher lifts and pressures, but how much sooner- anybody have any data?
 
kielbasa said:
I would assume likewise....but how much sooner does it wear guides, etc...? My gut tells me it would take substantial mileage (in a stock engine) to notice said effects, and probably sooner with higher lifts and pressures, but how much sooner- anybody have any data?
Click to expand...
There is far more than guide wear involved. If you read all of the tech articles, it explains a the many issues that come from poor geometry.
 
Thanks B3RE, please provide a link.

I don't want to short sell the importance or paraphrase. There is a lot going on and I'm not even going to struggle to break it down in a simple few paragraphs on EZ reader terms. No offense to anyone and/or there ability.

Read his article.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Thanks B3RE, please provide a link.

I don't want to short sell the importance or paraphrase. There is a lot going on and I'm not even going to struggle to break it down in a simple few paragraphs on EZ reader terms. No offense to anyone and/or there ability.

Read his article.
Click to expand...
I would, but Marland beat me to it in the OP.
:D
 
rumblefish360 said:
LOL! I get what you see!
It is a cross between the marker lines, not straight across and not fully covering the tip in a solid black color with the valve tips natural color poking through.

Funny how I seen it until you posted it looked wrecked. Like two pictures in one. Optical illusion!
Click to expand...

I don't have anything around here that would mark well with the checker springs. If it was the valve springs then it would rub off. If I put to much sharpie on the valve tip then it wouldn't rub off at all. :BangHead:

B3RE said:
I would, but Marland beat me to it in the OP.
:D
Click to expand...

:D
 
Just want to second about Mike and his willingness to answer any and all questions. I contacted him after reading a recommendation from Yellowrose. I bought a Lunati Voodoo cam for my 340 with Edelbrock heads. Since I did not have rocker shafts to take measurements from, Mike gave me instructions on how to take the measurements using some 3/4" copper tubing. Easy-peasy. In about a week and a half I had his complete set with the PRW rockers, shafts, and all his geometry correcting pieces. He told me what the new specs would be on the cam with the 1.6 rockers. Assembling the engine now and I could not be happier with his work and his willingness to explain everything.
 
Thanks Rob. Now yer getting an idea how my twisted mind works lol.
Ive never done or seen this procedure done. I will read thru the links Marland posted to get an idea of how I can do it on my sb build.
When using checker springs do you only need a pair of them?
Thanks guys
rumblefish360 said:
LOL! I get what you see!
It is a cross between the marker lines, not straight across and not fully covering the tip in a solid black color with the valve tips natural color poking through.

Funny how I seen it until you posted it looked wrecked. Like two pictures in one. Optical illusion!
Click to expand...

mullinax95 said:
I don't have anything around here that would mark well with the checker springs. If it was the valve springs then it would rub off. If I put to much sharpie on the valve tip then it wouldn't rub off at all. :BangHead:



:D
Click to expand...
 
I'm happy others are finding out Mike is as great as I say.

I'm even more happy guys are start to "get" geometry and correcting for it.

I'm hoping this trend continues.


THANK YOU MIKE FOR A GREAT PRODUCT AND EVEN BETTER SERVICE.
 
A roller tip being off center does not add to valve guide wear in any significant way. Only the small frictional force of the roller on the axle can generate any of the side force to do that, and it will increase with scrub width, and not change with centering.

Don't get obsessed over perfect centering and focus on the scrub width.
 
A shout out here to Yellow Rose and all the other Mopar experts on FABO. Many members are probably like me. A long time car guy, I raced Ford and Chevy trucks and late models for 15 years before retiring, but I'm not a Mopar guy. The help I've gotten from the FABO guys has been invaluable as I restore my Dart 340 Sport. A big "Thank You" to all who've helped.
 
if the rocker has a roller tip should it be called "scrub width"? scrub width is a when we have a non roller tip rocker?
 
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