Battery size or timing too high?

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RustyRatRod said:
Here's the proof. Just grab the distributor and crank the timing WAY down. Now see if the engine turns over. Not interested in running. Just see if it turns over. If it does, there's your answer.
Click to expand...
You don't even need to do that. Just pull and ground the coil secondary wire and see if it cranks better
 
junior636 said:
but then I was wondering if my battery is sufficient.
Click to expand...
Seems on the small size

junior636 said:
What are you guys running for cca
Click to expand...
I have a size 34 with 800 CCA

junior636 said:
What’s your initial timing
Click to expand...
10 BTC

junior636 said:
what are you doing if your distributor is locked out?
Click to expand...
Not locked. I assume your motor is drag race only and sees a very narrow rpm range.

But getting a retarder for starting might help your issue
 
Dana67Dart said:
Just a thought...

What if you keep your locked out timing but killed the ignition till you flip a switch.

you crank the engine and once it is spinning you flip the switch to fire it.

Might be easier on the starter?
Click to expand...
This is how I start my car - and it works pretty well. Get the engine cranking over, then turn on the ignition. Lights off easy.
 
My GTO has the timing locked at 35*, 9.9:1 cr, 650 CCA battery. Starts easily with an aftermarket starter & it is not even the 3.2hp big-daddy version.
 
Bewy said:
My GTO has the timing locked at 35*, 9.9:1 cr, 650 CCA battery. Starts easily with an aftermarket starter & it is not even the 3.2hp big-daddy version.
Click to expand...
Yeah because wimp compression, next !
 
Same here....hit the starter button and flipped on the ignition a second or so later.
 
Cranky said:
Same here....hit the starter button and flipped on the ignition a second or so later.
Click to expand...
I've never recommended locked out timing, but the ignition kill switch is such an EASY solution if locked out is what you want to run.
 
Last edited:
RustyRatRod said:
I've never recommended locked out timing, but the ignition kill switch is such an EASY solution if locked out id what you want to run.
Click to expand...
I bought springs and bushings, I’m missing the weights to so I gotta get those now. I accidentally threw all these parts out I guess.
 
junior636 said:
I bought springs and bushings, I’m missing the weights to so I gotta get those now. I accidentally threw all these parts out I guess.
Click to expand...
I'd have a mountain of parts if I kept everything I chunked. But I'm still glad I didn't.
 
junior636 said:
I bought springs and bushings, I’m missing the weights to so I gotta get those now. I accidentally threw all these parts out I guess.
Click to expand...

I’m assuming it’s a MSD distributor. If you can, find MSD weights and use them. Try and avoid the Mr.Gasket weights and others like that.

If you can, it’s always best to make the curve never stop. In other words, don’t use the bushing to stop your mechanical advance. Using the bushings can make your timing bounce around at max advance.

If you can, you do that by making the weights lighter and/or using heavy springs. Light springs will usually make the timing erratic at low RPM.

The issue is getting springs strong enough to slow the curve down. When you get to the point the springs won’t slow the curve down enough you can start trimming the weights to get it slower. Making the weight lighter is about the same as using a heavier spring.

If you have an idea at what RPM you make peak torque, you can figure out how much timing you need there (dyno numbers would be incredibly useful if you have them) and then how far peak torque is from peak power will tell you what the shape of the curve needs to look like from peak torque to peak power.

Then you have to find what initial timing you need. Once you know that you can figure out the curve from idle to peak torque.

The hard part (aside from knowing what the engine actually wants) is making all that happen.

I can help with some of it if you have a close idea of what your power curve looks like.

I’m about to the point (and may be at this point but I won’t know until I get my garbage on the pump to know for sure) where it’s hard to justify trying to get the timing curve how it needs to be without a programmable ignition.

If it wasn’t so expensive I’d have a crank trigger and a digital programmable MSD 7. You can ride the dots and make the curve anything you want.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Enough guys on here know this stuff to help you.

I’m glad you decided to go with a curve. You are going against “conventional wisdom” about timing.

Just so you know, for a LONG time I was a HUGE advocate for locking out timing. Then I got schooled on ignition slew rates and timing retard with rpm. I was dead wrong about locked out timing.

So I always try and get guys to learn about timing and combustion and why a curve makes more power. And it’s easily proven on the dyno.

You are certainly on the right track.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I’m assuming it’s a MSD distributor. If you can, find MSD weights and use them. Try and avoid the Mr.Gasket weights and others like that.

If you can, it’s always best to make the curve never stop. In other words, don’t use the bushing to stop your mechanical advance. Using the bushings can make your timing bounce around at max advance.

If you can, you do that by making the weights lighter and/or using heavy springs. Light springs will usually make the timing erratic at low RPM.

The issue is getting springs strong enough to slow the curve down. When you get to the point the springs won’t slow the curve down enough you can start trimming the weights to get it slower. Making the weight lighter is about the same as using a heavier spring.

If you have an idea at what RPM you make peak torque, you can figure out how much timing you need there (dyno numbers would be incredibly useful if you have them) and then how far peak torque is from peak power will tell you what the shape of the curve needs to look like from peak torque to peak power.

Then you have to find what initial timing you need. Once you know that you can figure out the curve from idle to peak torque.

The hard part (aside from knowing what the engine actually wants) is making all that happen.

I can help with some of it if you have a close idea of what your power curve looks like.

I’m about to the point (and may be at this point but I won’t know until I get my garbage on the pump to know for sure) where it’s hard to justify trying to get the timing curve how it needs to be without a programmable ignition.

If it wasn’t so expensive I’d have a crank trigger and a digital programmable MSD 7. You can ride the dots and make the curve anything you want.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Enough guys on here know this stuff to help you.

I’m glad you decided to go with a curve. You are going against “conventional wisdom” about timing.

Just so you know, for a LONG time I was a HUGE advocate for locking out timing. Then I got schooled on ignition slew rates and timing retard with rpm. I was dead wrong about locked out timing.

So I always try and get guys to learn about timing and combustion and why a curve makes more power. And it’s easily proven on the dyno.

You are certainly on the right track.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this response. The problem is I don’t know a ton about this engine. I had traded this car off and when I bought it back the engine came back with it.

Here’s what I know-
440 block with scat crank and rods to make it a 512
Forged pistons- I’m only assuming it’s 10 or 10.5:1 compression ratio
Trick flow 240 heads
Trick flow single plane intake
The cam is a Howard’s but he couldn’t find the info on it, he said it was the next step down from what trick flow sold or recommended in their 240 kits
Msd 6al2, pro billet msd distributor and blaster 2 coil
The converter is from.501 performance but I haven’t checked to see what it flashes to yet because I still need to change the rear gear. It’s currently a 3.55 and I have a 4.10 to put in it
 
Here’s a few pics

IMG_2827.jpeg


IMG_2823.jpeg
 
junior636 said:
Thank you for this response. The problem is I don’t know a ton about this engine. I had traded this car off and when I bought it back the engine came back with it.

Here’s what I know-
440 block with scat crank and rods to make it a 512
Forged pistons- I’m only assuming it’s 10 or 10.5:1 compression ratio
Trick flow 240 heads
Trick flow single plane intake
The cam is a Howard’s but he couldn’t find the info on it, he said it was the next step down from what trick flow sold or recommended in their 240 kits
Msd 6al2, pro billet msd distributor and blaster 2 coil
The converter is from.501 performance but I haven’t checked to see what it flashes to yet because I still need to change the rear gear. It’s currently a 3.55 and I have a 4.10 to put in it
Click to expand...
Wire the throttle open, disable the ignition, pull all the plugs,..do cranking compression test. If that cam is on the small side, & You're 'guessing' the squeeze, with that many cubes You need to KNOW what the cranking compression is......
 
So this was REAL, REAL simple to diagnose. Just GRAB the distributor and retard hell out of it and see if it turns the engine easier. Is there some particular reason you haven't done that yet? You come here askin for help, get said help and seemingly ignore the FARK out of it.
 

Newbomb Turk said:
I’m assuming it’s a MSD distributor. If you can, find MSD weights and use them. Try and avoid the Mr.Gasket weights and others like that.

If you can, it’s always best to make the curve never stop. In other words, don’t use the bushing to stop your mechanical advance. Using the bushings can make your timing bounce around at max advance.

If you can, you do that by making the weights lighter and/or using heavy springs. Light springs will usually make the timing erratic at low RPM.

The issue is getting springs strong enough to slow the curve down. When you get to the point the springs won’t slow the curve down enough you can start trimming the weights to get it slower. Making the weight lighter is about the same as using a heavier spring.

If you have an idea at what RPM you make peak torque, you can figure out how much timing you need there (dyno numbers would be incredibly useful if you have them) and then how far peak torque is from peak power will tell you what the shape of the curve needs to look like from peak torque to peak power.

Then you have to find what initial timing you need. Once you know that you can figure out the curve from idle to peak torque.

The hard part (aside from knowing what the engine actually wants) is making all that happen.

I can help with some of it if you have a close idea of what your power curve looks like.

I’m about to the point (and may be at this point but I won’t know until I get my garbage on the pump to know for sure) where it’s hard to justify trying to get the timing curve how it needs to be without a programmable ignition.

If it wasn’t so expensive I’d have a crank trigger and a digital programmable MSD 7. You can ride the dots and make the curve anything you want.

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Enough guys on here know this stuff to help you.

I’m glad you decided to go with a curve. You are going against “conventional wisdom” about timing.

Just so you know, for a LONG time I was a HUGE advocate for locking out timing. Then I got schooled on ignition slew rates and timing retard with rpm. I was dead wrong about locked out timing.

So I always try and get guys to learn about timing and combustion and why a curve makes more power. And it’s easily proven on the dyno.

You are certainly on the right track.
Click to expand...
I have a friend running one of these setups in his Chevy. He seems to like it, although I question whether HE knows how to make a timing curve! BUT, the capability is there on the unit and it looks like a decently manufactured product and app.
progressionignition.com

Progression Ignition

Fully electronic timing control. Tuned with your smartphone or tablet. Wireless Bluetooth connection
progressionignition.com progressionignition.com

I also noticed that MSD has a version of the 6AL box that can be mated to a locked out dizzy and can be programmed via PC. I didnt know they had this.
 
Vertex_Jeff said:
I have a friend running one of these setups in his Chevy. He seems to like it, although I question whether HE knows how to make a timing curve! BUT, the capability is there on the unit and it looks like a decently manufactured product and app.
[/URL]

I also noticed that MSD has a version of the 6AL box that can be mated to a locked out dizzy and can be programmed via PC. I didnt know they had this.
[/URL]
Click to expand...

I’ve looked into those. For the money I’d rather use a fully programmable ignition that does more than what that does.

For the OP and anyone who doesn’t need all the features of a fully programmable ignition box that is probably the best, most cost effective way to go.

It’s been awhile but last time I looked they didn’t have any SB Chrysler distributors in stock. Maybe I’ll go look again.
 
RustyRatRod said:
So this was REAL, REAL simple to diagnose. Just GRAB the distributor and retard hell out of it and see if it turns the engine easier. Is there some particular reason you haven't done that yet? You come here askin for help, get said help and seemingly ignore the FARK out of it.
Click to expand...
I haven’t ignored it, one thing at a time. I bought springs and bushings, pulled the distributor and then realized I was missing the weights. Once I set my distributor up as most here suggest then I will know if I have a different problem or not. But either way the majority suggest setting up the distributor with a curve so I’m gonna try that first.
 
Last edited:
junior636 said:
Thank you for this response. The problem is I don’t know a ton about this engine. I had traded this car off and when I bought it back the engine came back with it.

Here’s what I know-
440 block with scat crank and rods to make it a 512
Forged pistons- I’m only assuming it’s 10 or 10.5:1 compression ratio
Trick flow 240 heads
Trick flow single plane intake
The cam is a Howard’s but he couldn’t find the info on it, he said it was the next step down from what trick flow sold or recommended in their 240 kits
Msd 6al2, pro billet msd distributor and blaster 2 coil
The converter is from.501 performance but I haven’t checked to see what it flashes to yet because I still need to change the rear gear. It’s currently a 3.55 and I have a 4.10 to put in it
Click to expand...
You might consider leaving the distributor locked and using a modern box and building a 3d map on a laptop. Thats the ultimate way to build a curve. I am using an MSD digital programmable 6al2.


https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_boxes/street_and_strip/parts/6530
 
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