Bent up stuff

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SGBARRACUDA said:
I think at this point we have more questions than answers!
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I am trying to supply any answers I can. I did notice ever since new cam was installed that it lacked the lopey idle of my first smaller cam. I figured with a bigger solid roller cam it would have a noticeable rougher idle. It didn't. At 800 rpm it didn't even lope at all and the exhaust note was weaker sounding. I am trying to accurately describe this entire process. The new cam is a solid roller Comp Cams .570 lift. 274/280 Duration @.050 is 236 242 Lobe lift is .3770 .3810
 
VonCramp said:
Just installed at zero. Lined the timing marks up.
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I never trust the timing marks anymore. I haven't built near as many motors as a lot of other guys here on FABO but I have bought one gear set that was mis-marked. Ever since then I always use a degree wheel to make sure the cam is in sync with the crank.

On one other build we had a small block Chevy we couldn't get to run no matter what we tried. - It turned out that they had shipped my buddy a reverse grind camshaft (designed for some of the sprint car guys that spun their motors backwards).

Your cam timing may have been correct but unless you've verified it with a wheel it's not certain.
 
Yeah with that cam( I think it is a xtreme energy XR 274R? ) it should have a noticeable idle. The cam card shows 564/571 lift. But that is with 1.5 rockers. You said you had 1.6 rockers. That works out to .603/.609 lift! Yeah you could have gotten into coil bind!
 
I always do whatever work I can on my own. However, the Pro Comp stuff was a completely new learning experience for me. I did not get sent any specs at all when the products arrived. Just parts. So, I bolted everything together. The only problem I had was I didn't check my deck height and the piston was actually traveling out of the cylinder .027. So I bought cometic head gaskets .100. I also changed cams while motor was apart. I ordered 7.250 pushrods because machinist said that was what I needed. He ordered them. I do not know the manufacturer. The springs are Comp Cams matched to my camshaft. When we started the motor it definitely lacked the lope it had prior to new cam. The exhaust even sounded stranger to me. Kind of weaker is how I can best describe it. The car still pulled hard and ran strong. I believe I could hear the springs break though because it sounded like a snapping sound. Pistons are flattop .30 over. Anything else I can think of I will add.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
Yeah with that cam( I think it is a xtreme energy XR 274R? ) it should have a noticeable idle. The cam card shows 564/571 lift. But that is with 1.5 rockers. You said you had 1.6 rockers. That works out to .603/.609 lift! Yeah you could have gotten into coil bind!
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Why would that be though? Wrong pushrod length? Comp Cams said springs were matched to the cam but who knows?
 
The higher the ratio of rocker arm will translate into a further opening of the valve and compress your springs more.
 
914-16 Comp Cams Springs? Even if they are the right springs they have to be set up at the recommended spring height. Your just going to have to start at the ground and work up from there. I still say you need to have those heads checked out and set up be a good machine shop. Plus as 1967 cuda stated, you need to use a degree wheel to see what the actual install center line is.
 
1967 'cuda said:
The higher the ratio of rocker arm will translate into a further opening of the valve and compress your springs more.
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Makes sense. I will contact Comp Cams to check if they sold me the correct springs given my rocker ratio.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
914-16 Comp Cams Springs? Even if they are the right springs they have to be set up at the recommended spring height. Your just going to have to start at the ground and work up from there. I still say you need to have those heads checked out and set up be a good machine shop. Plus as 1967 cuda stated, you need to use a degree wheel to see what the actual install center line is.
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VonCramp said:
Makes sense. I will contact Comp Cams to check if they sold me the correct springs given my rocker ratio.
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Like Roy said, to be properly set up you can't always get by bolting parts on - even with recommended springs the installed height should be checked.
 
I agree. Too much speculation from this younger guy. I just did as I was told. I trusted him. No idea on spring height. I can get spring specs though.
 
1967 'cuda said:
Like Roy said, to be properly set up you can't always get by bolting parts on - even with recommended springs the installed height should be checked.
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On the spring height the machinist is claiming .110 until coil bind.
 
Here is the spring info. I used 7.250 on pushrods. O.D. 1.525
I.D 1.100
inside I.D. .789
Seat Load 195 @ 1.850
Open Load .560. @ 1.225
Coil bind 1.113"
Spring Rate 560
 
Don't know much about procomp heads, but it certainly sounds like the "machinist" never actually checked the install height of those springs, and they are binding.
 
So you have a problem...... You have 2 choices. Either keep hacking at ideas and spend countless hours getting nowhere or put your motor back on the stand and go at it. Get yourself a How to build race engines book and there is more than ample information in it to help you along.

If it were me I would go in this order.

1-Pull Heads. Fill each port with fluid and check for a bent valve.
2-Degree the Camshaft.
3-Stick a head back on and check Piston to Valve clearance. A good time to check proper pushrod Length and coil bind on the Valve Spring. And I always check atleast 2 cylinders.

No need in discussing the numbers you are looking for as everyone has their own opinions but the book I mentioned never failed me in the past when I was learning all this stuff and wanted the safe route. And unfortunately there is an expense to checking what I have said in the way of tools but if you really want to do all this work yourself then make the investment. It is so worth it not relying on people to do things.

And lastly I have made more bonehead tunes on motors than all the guys on this board together probably lol. And even I have never had this happen.....Something is in a bind. Could be PtoV clearance, tight guide, coil bind, and the list can go on. Your friend was just trying to help you. You and he will laugh about this one day. Pull it down and fix it so you can find something else to seek and destroy....

Good luck,
JW
 
I did have new guides installed in the heads while I was changing cams by the same machinist buddy who helped me get into this mess. He said he didn't like the space in the original guides. That much I remember. They only had 50 miles on them. However it was the pro comp guides. Not saying they were worn out. Friend just didn't like them.
 
Okay I've only read this far and can't take anymore! I'm sure people will tell you that people work at a machine shops grinding valves or hot tanking parts or boring holes called themselves The Machinist. They're only hole Drillers and valve Grinders they're not assemblers they don't know how to assemble Motors and make everything work they know how to grind a valve. Just like they were taught. This guy sounds like a complete Jack wheel then screwed things up adjusting valves by sight or hand did I hear you say that? All the questions you're asking now I asked before I started assembling my motor and before I started doing anything I had a discussions on every single aspect of it. I got a lot of crap on this form when I started because I kept asking more questions and kept questioning people's questions but still learned a lot and made sure I knew everybody's opinion and everybody's knowledge before I started doing things even though I did a lot wrong. Well you said you're learning a lesson so lesson learned do it yourself don't let nobody touch your s***
Edit. I'm off to the Mopar Nationals here in a few minutes again. Going to get competition from the only car a Mopar can get competition from another Mopar. get your stuff right to the dragstrip and have fun. learn to do it yourself because you'll be the only one there to work on it. Good luck and again have fun!!
VonCramp said:
I thought I was learning from this machinist but he does kind of go on speculation on a lot of things. I don't think he's actually fully assembled a motor on his own. I did build this Barracuda entirely on my own. When I started to get into race stuff is where the problems began. First it was piston to head clearance. Now it seems like coil bind is an issue. The thing is only the springs on #2 cylinder broke. All the others look to be fine. However all pushrods on passenger side are extremely bent.
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COMP Cams Valve Springs 914-16

Installed Height (in):1.800 in.

Seat Pressure at Installed Height (lbs):165 lbs.

Open Height (in):1.200 in.

Open Pressure (lbs):385 lbs.

at .600 lift you are at coil bind....depending on installed height...
 
j par said:
Okay I've only read this far and can't take anymore! I'm sure people will tell you that people work at a machine shops grinding valves or hot tanking parts or boring holes called themselves The Machinist. They're only hole Drillers and valve Grinders they're not assemblers they don't know how to assemble Motors and make everything work they know how to grind a valve. Just like they were taught. This guy sounds like a complete Jack wheel then screwed things up adjusting valves by sight or hand did I hear you say that? All the questions you're asking now I asked before I started assembling my motor and before I started doing anything I had a discussions on every single aspect of it. I got a lot of crap on this form when I started because I kept asking more questions and kept questioning people's questions but still learned a lot and made sure I knew everybody's opinion and everybody's knowledge before I started doing things even though I did a lot wrong. Well you said you're learning a lesson so lesson learned do it yourself don't let nobody touch your s***
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You are right my friend. Got up early and pulled driver's side valve cover to look at pushrods and springs. The pushrods are all bent and coils are literally touching each other on the valves that are at lift. I don't know what the machinist miss-measured but he is way off.
 
Dismantle it completely. Check every last component very closely. Re-assemble it carefully, checking all the tolerances. You need to know if you have the correct springs. You need push rods the correct length. Piston to valve clearance needs to be checked. One step at a time, and it will be fine. When you are done, take it to the track and blow the doors off the machinist car.

And I need to type faster.
 
70aarcuda said:
COMP Cams Valve Springs 914-16

Installed Height (in):1.800 in.

Seat Pressure at Installed Height (lbs):165 lbs.

Open Height (in):1.200 in.

Open Pressure (lbs):385 lbs.

at .600 lift you are at coil bind....depending on installed height...
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You are right. I checked driver's side this morning because it is still assembled. The springs are literally touching with no clearance. All pushrods are bent. I try to upload a photo but FABO isn't working correctly on the ol' iPad.
 
magnumdart said:
Dismantle it completely. Check every last component very closely. Re-assemble it carefully, checking all the tolerances. You need to know if you have the correct springs. You need push rods the correct length. Piston to valve clearance needs to be checked. One step at a time, and it will be fine. When you are done, take it to the track and blow the doors off the machinist car.
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Will do. He is a Ford guy anyways. Stuck in the heyday of the old 5.0
 
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