best distributor for the buck

[71beater]

TB,
I have no doubt about HEI...
That wasn't the point.
The point is that there's a lot of BS about the reliability of Chrysler's electronic ignition, very possibly skewing the man's perception of it.
It doesn't matter to me how he goes about firing his car, but he should be presented realistic info to make his own informed decision about.
Do I think if I wire up an HEI module I'll gain 20 HP? I doubt it, but if I have a box take a dump, I'd surely consider trying it.
That said, you and I both know millions of them have crapped out, too.
In the dark ages we had "barely adequate", then we got "sufficient", then we got "superfluous"... Mopar's system is easily "sufficient" for all but the most heavily modified engines.
The biggest problem today is getting quality replacement parts, where did that box or module come from? The Chinese are quite capable manufacturers but seem to think "we" will only buy the cheapest parts it seems.

 

[moparmat2000]

Hotter spark means more complete fuel burn = a harder push on the piston for whatever thats worth to you. Its that simple. The HEI has a hotter spark than the mopar electronic, since it doesnt have a 6v ballast resistor to contend with. Its a proven fact. Hell i wish mopar had come up with it. Additional benefits are better cold starting, better fuel mileage, crisper throttle response, and better idle quality.

Will the HEI gain 20 hp. I doubt it as well, however what you do get is hotter spark for more complete fuel burn = more power. You cant argue that. Its simple engine basics. Plus everything else i just mentioned.

You can have tunnel vision and say the mopar brain box hobbled by a 6V ballast resistor (a leftover from points) and weak spark is still the best. And it was pretty good in its time 40 years ago, hell i ran a mopar electronic with an orange box in a 69 440 charger i had in the early 90s. But had i known about the HEI module triggering a mopar dizzy back then and the benefits of doing it, i would have done that modification.

Does the mopar electronic run good? Sure it does. But theres better out there. Lots of folks like MSD setups. They are great. However for a guy on a budget the HEI cant be beat, plus you can use a stock mopar electronic dist as a trigger with it. The best of both, and all stock parts, easily gotten at rock auto or your auto parts store.

I used mopar boxes back then, but i see where the HEI is light years ahead in its design even if it is from the same era. i am a firm believer of using the 4 pin HEI module.

Can the GM module burn out? Sure it can. I recommend either the Napa echlin, or genuine GM modules, and they need to be mounted to a good heat sink and have the white heat transfer grease put between them and the heatsink to extend their life. I will say this, a GM 4 pin spare takes a lot less space in your glovebox than a mopar module, and ballast. Plus it eliminates the ballast resistor altogether. A common failure point of mopar ignition systems.

I would go so far as to say, why not temporary wire up a 4 pin GM HEI module and E coil to your car, and compare both the HEI and mopar system. Dont forget to wire up the HEI without a ballast it doesnt need one. And run your car both ways. See how it goes. I dont think you will be disappointed. Think of it as a seat of the pants experiment. GM 4 pin modules can be had from napa for about $20

Matt

 

[69_340_GTS]

Unless you can find NOS real Mopar electronic parts, I'd steer clear of the newer Mopar stuff as well as the generic auto parts store replacement parts. All the so-called "Mopar" parts made in China/Asia are real junk. After several years of poor driveabilty and numerous failures, I finally gave up on it and installed 100% USA-made MSD ignition components. The result = No more ignition system problems!

 

[rumblefish360]

I have heard excellent reports from the Davis Unified Ignition (DUI), MSD's fully electronic adjustable unit, also Mallory. (MSD just purchased them) A few others as well.

As a basic easy upgrade over stock using the stock style parts, I would run a MP chrome box or a FBO set up. Recurve the factory distributor. But you can do better.

 

[moparmat2000]

The Mopar distributor/ECU is much harder to retrofit to an early points car and is much more expensive than HEI, and less reliable, all for a weaker spark (but acceptable). But, it would make many guys here happy, even though not original for your year. Decide what their thumbs-up is worth to you.

Bill, i have to disagree with some of your comments. Retrofitting a stock electronic mopar ignition into a points mopar requires only 2 wires be hard wired out of the control box. These i believe go to ignition switched only hot, and to the coil. This is hardly rocket science. The remaining 2 wires go to the distributer pickup module. The 5th a think a green/red wire is unused. I may have it incorrect as to here one of the 2 hard wires go, but i know i am correct about the 5th wire and the 2 that go to the distributor. Thats pretty freakin easy. Theres schematics on how to wire this up all over the internet. It is a bit more work in adapting a GM HEI to make it all appear as tho it belongs there.


The mopar electronic is a pretty reliable system. Be sure to ground your ignition module very well to the fire wall. Never had any go poof on me,, and i ran them for years, however my dads lil red express we did a frame off resto had 10k on it since the resto and had an orange box go poof. Its electronics it happens.

Yes the mopar electronic has a weak spark. The 6V ballast resistor, a leftover from points causes this, but is required because otherwise you will burn out the mopar module.

One has to understand that when the HEI was developed GM, like all the automakers was facing a grim future with low compression ratios, an OPEC oil embargo, and new strictor emissions compliance laws looming in the future with the EPA. Mopar and Ford went with the 6V ballast setup electronic ignitions thinking rightly so that no points would equal less emissions issues between tuneups because point dwell angle is no longer an issue. GM on the other hand, looked at the advantage of no longer needing a ballast or resistor wire, and ran with it.

GM engineers figured ok electronic ign, no points needed, no need for a resistor wire or ballast resistor to protect the points from burning out. Removing this as an obstacle they looked at making the spark as hot as they could to make the fuel more completely burn. This was for a few reasons. They were trying to eke out a bit of power from the low compression turds they were forced to make to run on low octane gas, and be emissions compliant, get fuel economy up a bit as this was the era of the first oil crisis. The nice thing is this is now 40+ year old tech that still works great as a cheap , yet hot ignition setup. Again i say MSD is good if you have the cash to do it, but HEI 4 pin with a mopar dizzy cant be beat for cheap hot spark if you dont have the money for an MSD.

Matt

 

[moparmat2000]

I have heard excellent reports from the Davis Unified Ignition (DUI), MSD's fully electronic adjustable unit, also Mallory. (MSD just purchased them) A few others as well.

As a basic easy upgrade over stock using the stock style parts, I would run a MP chrome box or a FBO set up. Recurve the factory distributor. But you can do better.

Hi rob,

I like the concept of the DUI setup, however it uses the big bulky GM HEI cap setup. I have heard of folks having problems with these GM style setups hitting intake manifolds on small block mopars. This is why i prefer to use the mopar dist, and fire it with the gm module either remote mounted, or the custom mount i have that mounts the module right to the bottom of a mopar V8 distributor next to the vac advance.

Check out www.designed2drive.com for these mounting plates. I bought one for my small block distributor and am very pleased with the install. I had to file off a bit of casting flash on the distributor body to make the adaptor sit flush, and tap the dist drain holes with i think an 8-32 tap for the 2 HEI mount plate mounting screws.

This is an inexpensive adaptor kit that fits good and looks nice. Comes with all the hardware, spade terminals, heat shrink, and detailed instructions on how to wire it up. All for $25 shipped.

For those who say the module needs to be mounted away from the engine, you are wrong. The module was designed to be inside a distributor in the first place. That is a hot environment, plus you want the module as close to the dist pickup as possible.

Matt

 

[Johnny Dart]

Might as well go all the way dude !!

 

[TrailBeast]

You constantly talk about how hei is a more powerful system, so I ask you, prove it.
And dont show me your little video with the hei spark. Prove it to us in real world performance.
Prove to me how much better your car is than everyone else's cars with factory ignition.
And when your ready to line your car up against my little orange box Chrysler ignition Dart, let me know.
Warning: Prepare for the smackdown :burnout: :glasses7:

I don't need to show you anything Johnny, as the info is all over the place and very obvious to anyone that can/will see it.
The whole chest thumping attitude doesn't add to your credibility much either, as I used to take your posts more serious as I assumed you had more knowledge about the whole thing than you apparently do.
Now I just consider your posts pointless for anyone wanting to know the actual facts.
As a matter of fact now that I think about it, the only time I think I ever see a post from you is to piss on anything other than your oppinions, so exhale that breath you puff your chest out with and maybe you will be able to see reality.

Sorry man but that's just the way it's working out when you refuse to see the obvious and try to demean people with your self limiting blind ignorance and insistence.

 

[Johnny Dart]

I don't need to show you anything Johnny, as the info is all over the place and very obvious to anyone that can/will see it.
The whole chest thumping attitude doesn't add to your credibility much either, as I used to take your posts more serious as I assumed you had more knowledge about the whole thing than you apparently do.
Now I just consider your posts pointless for anyone wanting to know the actual facts.
As a matter of fact now that I think about it, the only time I think I ever see a post from you is to piss on anything other than your oppinions, so exhale that breath you puff your chest out with and maybe you will be able to see reality.

Sorry man but that's just the way it's working out when you refuse to see the obvious and try to demean people with your blind insistence.

Waaaaaaaa........Maybe I should call the Waaabulance for you ?

The only thing I have pissed on is GM.

Sorry man, thats just the way it is.

Maybe you should reread the original question.

 

[Idaho]

This question comes up every so often. I keep adding them to my collection for the day when I need it. I like Matt's overview which provides the historical perspective.

Next question is, what's the most cost effective way to add a rev limiter?
To make it more specific, start with the factory style dizzy and GM HEI.

Seems to me a rev limiter should be part of any modern build.

 

[crackedback]

MSD distributors are a ton easier to adjust from an advance and curve perspective.

I like the MSD distributors over MP stuff.

 

[mguner]

Might as well go all the way dude !!

GM module on a Ford chassis with a Camaro body! Yeah baby that's every mullet loving red necks dream!

 

[RustyRatRod]

Here it is. Pretty simple really. The HEI DOES have extra spark. Since I cannot say it any better.......

The thing is you are "sorta" right. That is not why, per se. "Everybody" could have easily designed a coil to operate directly off 12 (14) volts. The REASON that GM, Ford, Chrysler and AMC used a ballast with a lower voltage coil is "so that they could bypass the ballast" during start and MAINTAIN a good hot starting spark. THAT is the key

An HEI (GM) and just about any coil tho, has enough "extra" spark (even a stock coil) that this bypass is not needed.

 

[TrailBeast]

Here it is. Pretty simple really. The HEI DOES have extra spark. Since I cannot say it any better.......

And much better dwell control.
And 15 feet less of wiring.
And no ballast required
And parts can be had anywhere if ever needed.
And can be done nicely for under 30 bucks.

Seems like the "most bang for the buck" to me.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I got my GM style big cap HEI distributor AND Accel wires for the 351M in my Ford truck new for 73 bucks. Shipped. I WOULD have done the TrailBeast system, but budget was......and always is a concern. So far it runs great and limiting the mechanical advance is VERY simple to do.

 

[TrailBeast]

I got my GM style big cap HEI distributor AND Accel wires for the 351M in my Ford truck new for 73 bucks. Shipped. I WOULD have done the TrailBeast system, but budget was......and always is a concern. So far it runs great and limiting the mechanical advance is VERY simple to do.

And there ya go, "bang for the buck" proven again

 

[mguner]

And there ya go, "bang for the buck" proven again

You can lead a horse to water.... and if you get somebody to hold his head down while you kick him in the nuts.... HE will DRINK!

 

[moparmat2000]

You can lead a horse to water.... and if you get somebody to hold his head down while you kick him in the nuts.... HE will DRINK!

Now Mguner, that may be true of horses, but we cant do that to another human bring even if Johnny doesnt want to drink. However Johnny darts pix of the hacked up 4x4 camaro, butchered back yard HEI 4 pin setup, and billybob toothed mullet goon only show his ignorance of the HEI mopar dizzy hybrid being better than stock mopar electronic. Trailbeast is right bang 4 the buck. About $30.

I still urge you all to check out www.designed2drive.com for the nice gold anodized billet HEI module mounting bracket that mounts the module cleanly to the underside of the mopar distributor. I cut an HEI module pickup plug out of a seized GM dizzy , and a plug on the body wiring side for the mopar electronic pickup and made an adaptor that plugs right into the GM module, and into the mopar pickup. Easy peasy, then at napa i found a GM alternator field plug repair end. Perfect fit for the ign and coil side of the module. It even had red and black wires. It plugged right into the other end, and i wired it right to my coil. Very clean setup, module is hidden almost completely out of sight under the vac advance.

So yeah trailbeast is right about $30, plus $25 for the dizzy mount bracket kit if you want an even cleaner install. You can add to that an advance curve limiter kit from FBO ignition. 4secondsflat.com PN# J-685S Comes with the 6 position plate, several different tension springs. No more welding and grinding slots. About $29

Matt

 

[BillGrissom]

Be careful of the 45 buck HEI unit. They have a bastard Bosch module that's only compatible with Holdens in Australia.

I popped the lid on mine and saw a 4-pin ECU w/ spade connectors. Different than the GM 4-pin module but looks like you could easily swap one in. In fact, when I ever get around to using that distributor, I will likely put an 8-pin HEI under the cover (w/ cut-outs) since those allow spark timing control.

So if Johnny's car beats an HEI sparked car in a 1/4 mile would that prove that the Mopar ECU is superior? Infallible logic. At least Johnny's dad can't beat up my deceased dad.

 

[mguner]

I'm using this with a (mostly) stock Mopar distributor to play with on my early 354 Hemi with one of those cheap Speedmaster coils.... I just like fins!

 

[moparmat2000]

Well if using parts from other makes or fabricating what you need is concidered the essence of hot rodding, then i guess i am guilty as charged. I fabricate a lot of what i need, i also use parts that work reliably and improve my vehicle no matter what vehicle brand. Lets see i am using a mini denso 50A alternator, and a GM HEI module. OMG my car is less of a mopar because of this heaven forbid!!!

I used to be mopar parts only when i was younger, i have evolved a bit as i have gotten older to realize that not everything mopar did was great. Take for instance running the alternators heavy gage output wire thru a plastic bulkhead with a small connector to an amp gage then back out of the bulkhead with another small connector to the battery. Just what the hell was up with that!!! Flambe' anyone. It no worky anymore when the magic smoke is let out. Why couldent they have run the output lead straight to the battery with a fusible link in the circuit, and wired in a simple volt gage in the dash.

Now dont get me wrong, i love my chrysler vehicles, and have more appreciation and love for chrysler products than any other marque, but i am smart enough to know that theres stuff made by other companies that just works better that is adaptable to a mopar.

Matt

 

[Johnny Dart]

Best bang for the buck between MSD and Mopar distributor. I would say for the buck, Mopar.
MSD makes quality stuff, but is more expensive.











.

 

[Johnny Dart]

:blob:

 

[moparmat2000]

well there ya go. i must be a redneck.

 

[moparmat2000]

I guess Johnny dart thinks all HEI module installs are hack jobs done by rednecks. heres the pix of my stock dizzy after i overhauled it, and added the HEI to it. first pic was right after i rebuilt it.

if your gonna do one of these brackets, i recommend dissassembling the distributor first, as you will have to tap the 2 drain holes for 8-32 countersunk mounting screws. and remove some casting flash on the distributor where the bracket has to sit. the holes are correct sized to just go at it with a tap. i modded my housing while i had it all apart for the rebuild, then added another drain hole opposite of the module.

Hey Johnny, you can keep your weak spark mopar module hobbled by a 6V ballast resistor. i know better. i still recommend you try an HEI 4 pin setup on your mopar, you may be surprised. BTW you seem to think these are all hack job installs check out the pix of mine. The remaining 2 module pins go to coil + and - a NAPA GM alternator plug with black and red wires plugs in perfectly on this end. i will be running a cylindrical pertronix ignitor 3 coil which has similar ohms resistance as the GM E coil. this will appear close to stock in my car. instead of just connecting the ballast resistor wires together, i even hollowed out the ballast resistor removing the resistor wire and installing a 10 gage wire inside the ceramic housing, turning it into a 12V jumper so it appears as if its still a ballast resistor.

for those of you who like the HEI module mounting bracket.

i got it at www.designed2drive.com

Nathan of designed2drive makes a great product that fills this need. i made the adaptor plug on my dizzy myself. I guess according to Johnny dart, maybe its time to put in my billybob teeth and grow a mullet

Matt