best racing ign system.

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Rapid Robert

Rapid Robert

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63 dart dirt track circle track stock car. 360 2bbl. race duration is ~30 minutes. 6200 RPM limiter. I have a recurved OE electronic dist. what module & coil would you guys recommend? I can use a regular flat 4 pin module or an HEI module that mounts under the dist. I think I can get by with an externally mounted Ecoil or if not then a regular round coil. thank you for your time. I want the best!. RR
 
Rapid Robert said:
unfortunately MSD would not be allowed. they pretty much want stock appearing items.
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Then this is simple. Run the stock Mopar ignition. Put a good hot curve in the distributor. Can you run a duplicate ignition in case of failure so you can just switch over on the fly?
 
RustyRatRod said:
Good?
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As good as you can find/buy/afford. When concealed in the factory case, no one knows. Personally, I'd beat the trees til a chrome box fell out. But, he's obviously running a restricted, "affordable" class. It's a popular"cheat" in the dirt **** around here. Can't have any MSD modules or any hot modules. As long as it's black the the factory. Well, all those companies make black ones too. Dumb, I know...
 
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408 swinger said:
As good as you can find/buy/afford. When concealed in the factory case, no one knows. Personally, I'd beat the trees til a chrome box fell out. But, he's obviously running a restricted, "affordable" class. It's a popular"cheat" in the dirt **** around here. Can't have any MSD modules or any hot modules. As long as it's black the the factory. Well, all those companies make black ones too. Dumb, I know...
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I simply meant everyone talks about the GM HEI like it's the best there is. IMO, it's not. Ford's Duraspark and Chrysler's electronic ignition was every bit as good if not better. I think the only hype that sticks is the popularity and availability. Same with all the Chevy and GM stuff.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I simply meant everyone talks about the GM HEI like it's the best there is. IMO, it's not. Ford's Duraspark and Chrysler's electronic ignition was every bit as good if not better. I think the only hype that sticks is the popularity and availability. Same with all the Chevy and GM stuff.
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Totally agree...
 
Stock appearing ignition?

Chrysler Gold box. IIRC, there still available new.
 
Any ign system that uses a bal res [ & Mopar does ] is not going to produce as much spark energy as an ign system that uses an E core coil without a bal res. It is that simple.
And the numbers tell the story.......
GM HEI engines had spark plug gaps as large as 0.080". Mopar had 0.035". The HEI has enough 'oomph' to fire a big gap & supply it with a big current.
Testing done by D.Vizard on HEI in his SBC book, SAbooks #57, found that the stock GM coil & module ran out of spark around 4800 rpm buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, it was an unrealistic test as he admits because the spark was pumped into a chamber at 142 psi of pure nitrogen. An MSD 4 pin HEI module went to 8500 rpm [ limit of the test rig ] without misfire.
A good hi output module such as the MSD # 8364, Pertronix #D2000, Summit #850100 with a good E core coil such as the MSD #8207 or Summit # 850500 will get the job done. Use spiral wound HT leads.
 
Use the e-coil with whatever module you want. E coil has a lot more energy potential.
 
i raced in the same class and never had a failure with the gm system but the Chrysler system needs extra wires and ballast resistor , and i had coil failure several times with oil cooled coils most people dont under stand a dirt track is like off road racing lotts of bumps that shake everything loose
 
So - does the rule book mandate that the ignition appear stock for your engine, or that it just appear to be stock for something? If they have worded the rulebook badly enough, a set of eight totally stock LS1 coils (unfortunately, Gen III Hemi or Pentastar V6 probably aren't going to be as easy to find a way to install here) and a stock mid '90s BMW six cylinder crank trigger might fit the letter of the rule and would clobber just about anything your competitors are going to be running.

If that's too much creative rule interpretation, I'd either use the FBO box or a good quality GM HEI module stuffed inside the distributor. FBO has a specific Pertronix coil they recommend; for the HEI, I'd use a Bosch coil for a 1987-1991 BMW 325. I've seen that coil beat the allegedly hot yellow coil by 5 horsepower... on a four cylinder engine.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Then this is simple. Run the stock Mopar ignition. Put a good hot curve in the distributor. Can you run a duplicate ignition in case of failure so you can just switch over on the fly?
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We visited the Richard Petty Museum a while back and I'll be damned if most of the ignition systems inside the cockpits of those old Mopars were Chrysler ECU's. No idea how the cars ran with that junk back then, but that's what was in them.:lol:
 
teringer said:
i raced in the same class and never had a failure with the gm system but the Chrysler system needs extra wires and ballast resistor , and i had coil failure several times with oil cooled coils most people dont under stand a dirt track is like off road racing lotts of bumps that shake everything loose
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Oil cooled coils should not be used in such applications and never mounted sideways. The solid core coils should be used. Many guys complain when they mounted there coil to the OE location on there MoPar at at they would fail. And they should fail because there instructions, at least the ones I have read state to mount them up and down standing up. The solid coils can be mounted in an OEM location.

This was not directed at you and I have to make a disclaimer that I don’t race circle track. Just street cars and drag cars.
 
The ballast resistor limits power to the coil on start up correct?
And while driving?
 
12many said:
We visited the Richard Petty Museum a while back and I'll be damned if most of the ignition systems inside the cockpits of those old Mopars were Chrysler ECU's. No idea how the cars ran with that junk back then, but that's what was in them.:lol:
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Yeah, they shouldda never won a single race with that crap.
 
Bewy said:
Any ign system that uses a bal res [ & Mopar does ] is not going to produce as much spark energy as an ign system that uses an E core coil without a bal res. It is that simple.
And the numbers tell the story.......
GM HEI engines had spark plug gaps as large as 0.080". Mopar had 0.035". The HEI has enough 'oomph' to fire a big gap & supply it with a big current.
Testing done by D.Vizard on HEI in his SBC book, SAbooks #57, found that the stock GM coil & module ran out of spark around 4800 rpm buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, it was an unrealistic test as he admits because the spark was pumped into a chamber at 142 psi of pure nitrogen. An MSD 4 pin HEI module went to 8500 rpm [ limit of the test rig ] without misfire.
A good hi output module such as the MSD # 8364, Pertronix #D2000, Summit #850100 with a good E core coil such as the MSD #8207 or Summit # 850500 will get the job done. Use spiral wound HT leads.
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And here we go. Again. Spark gap doesn’t mean **** when it comes to ignition output.

Davis Unified was taking out full page ads claiming his **** made more power than a mag. It was marketing at best and IMO it was a lie.

If you make power the plug gap will need to close up to fire it.

Unreal.
 
rumblefish360 said:
The ballast resistor limits power to the coil on start up correct?
And while driving?
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No, Yes.
Its bypassed with the start ignition circuit. Voltage is already low during start.
It's in the coil feed in the running ignition circuit. As it cools off at higher car speeds (with more air exhange in the engine compartment) it resistance goes down a little compared with the car stopped. The resistor's job is to keep the coil from getting excessively hot. With the correct resistor a coil will be saturated in time for the next spark.
 
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There are HEI dists now being made for non-GM engines. Not aware of any company making Chrys elec dists for non Chrys engines. Therein would lie a story....
You want to run the biggest plug gap your ign system will tolerate without misfire. It might not make any more hp at peak rpm, but the engine is not continually running at peak rpm; it has to start from idle....& then proceed through the rpm range to peak rpm.
 
Rapid Robert said:
63 dart dirt track circle track stock car. 360 2bbl. race duration is ~30 minutes. 6200 RPM limiter. I have a recurved OE electronic dist. what module & coil would you guys recommend? I can use a regular flat 4 pin module or an HEI module that mounts under the dist. I think I can get by with an externally mounted Ecoil or if not then a regular round coil. thank you for your time. I want the best!. RR
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The most important thing will be the curves in the distributor. You're going to heat soak the engine in ways that a drag car never sees, and a street car only sees when hauling heavy loads in the mountains. It will not need or want the mechanical timing to be as advanced in the mid to top end as a drag racer.
Using vacuum advance potentially will help with engine temperatures and matching the part throttle as well as the full throttle engine preferences for spark timing.

The next most important thing will be survival. In no particular order:
* The wires need to be strain relieved so there's no tension on the connections, and supported so they aren't moving around.
* If you are going to go electronic, then find an ECU that will hold up under 40 minutes of heat and stress and is easily replaced. Assume you will need a backup because there's really know way to be 100% sure of survival in this siutation. The truth is not many people running circle track or even road course with these so there's not a large pool of info. (Amusingly I've noticed on some Brand X forums, Chrysler systems are prefered.) These days what you want on a Chrysler type ECU is a well attached heat sink for the transistor.
IMO you do NOT need an ECU designed for very high rpm of the sort that was used for NHRA class racing or NASCAR. 6200 rpm max says to me you will be coming off corners at considerably less than that.
* Pick an ECU and coil that seem to match up with the rpm your looking at. If you use a stock oriented ECU its not going to increase dwell at the higher rpms, so a coil that has windings that saturate quicker possibly could help. There are a variety of windings in epoxy filled cylinders ad swell as oil filled cylinders, as well as the E-core coils. The bottom line will be ECU, Coil, and Resistor work together.
* I'm going to suggest avoiding the FBO and Revenator boxes unless you want to commit to them fully. Going from memory, Revenator uses the previous spark event to adjust the timing of the next and Don's box has a compensation built in to try to compensate for the slew rate. This means that the spark timing on each of these will be different than each other, and different than a box without electronic compensation. Swap from to the other and you'll drive yourself nuts. Maybe contact one of them if you really like them, or E-berger with his more normal ECU, and see if one will back your effort in turn for some publicity.
 
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