Black M Code GTS at Mecum

Mopar General Discussions

  1. 72bluNblu

    72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Looks like something sketchy is going on to me. Appears to be rust damage covered with the repaint. Hard to tell from just the picture, but it doesn't look right. I'd absolutely want to see that up close, and see the rest of the trunk pan, before I spent big money on it.
     
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    • Canucklehead

      Canucklehead Well-Known Member

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      Here is my beater M-code, originally silver/stripe delete. I drive it hard, it's from California so not too rusty, and I'd love the silver but that's the next owner's job. And it has the correct exhaust manifolds.

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      • DentalDart

        DentalDart Well-Known Member

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        Ill volunteer to be the next owner. I'll make sure it continues to be driven hard and memories to be made with it :steering:
         
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        • jtkaaa07

          jtkaaa07 BossMan FABO Gold Member

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          The Mr Norms 69 M code GTS sold about 20 minutes ago, $41,000
           
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          • DentalDart

            DentalDart Well-Known Member

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            I've been checking back all day trying to see what it would sell for. Not a bad price! B bodies have been down on price at the auction too, not all but some guys got some good deals.
             
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            • moparmandan

              moparmandan FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              • red67gts

                red67gts FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                I know lots of people think I am crazy for the way I have always driven my 67 GTS that I have had almost 53 years. I put 78,000 hard miles on the original 383 before pulling it and swapping for the 69 440 six that came out of 69 1/2 six bbl Roadrunner with 3,000 miles. I had all the 440, 727 and 8 3/4 out of Roadrunner in a 1948 Willys pickup and couldn't keep it on the ground so got the bright idea of swapping them. After I got married my wife thought we needed a tv more than I needed the jeep so I sold it for $500 with my original GTS engine. I am running a Matt Hensley built 499" stroker now and at 71 years old still gouge on it everytime I take it out. I built it like I wanted it and don't really care what people think. When I get through with it maybe someone else can make it theirs, Joe
                 
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                • DentalDart

                  DentalDart Well-Known Member

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                  These are the kind of stories that give me direction. Not the I bought this car 10yrs ago put 500 miles on it taking it on and off the trailer at shows.
                  I've had my car for 6 months have torn it apart making it non-driveable for almost 3 of those months and I've still put 600 miles on it. Most of those miles with the minions in the back, in fact she is yelling at me now to fix her purple car so we can drive it.
                   
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                  • red67gts

                    red67gts FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                    keep making those memories
                     
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                    • jimharvard

                      jimharvard JimHarvard FABO Gold Member

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                      i'd like to offer a few thoughts. first, i have been watching mecum and barrett-jackson over the last six months and there is NO question that the market for muscle cars is falling. other than around 5 or 6 "special" or "unique" muscle cars 1964-1971, ALL "original OEM" muscle cars from that era are dropping in price. for $50k or less, you can buy about any Detroit muscle car you want already restored and ready to drive. Roadrunners, GTX, Cuda's, Super Bees, Chargers all these mopars can be purchased now for between $30-$50k. even the hemi cars are now below six figures and are in the $75k-$90k range. the same is true for Pontiac's, Fords and Chevys. yes, i know some guys are still getting big money for their mopars in private sales, however, the cars going through the major auctions are dropping in price. now, of course, the auction cars may have hidden problems or some other kind of issue that reduces their price. you can't tell much about a 440 GTX being pushed across the mecum stage that hammers for $45k. but one has to assume that the cars that are taken to these auctions are presented and prepared to bring the most money - i.e. - they are "good" cars. i would say the Mr. Norm 440 69 Dart that sold for $41k is a very good example of where the market is for "muscle cars" right now. i have watched the collector car market now very closely for the last 10 years. at the beginning, the restored cars were bringing big money because they were still in short supply and the potential buyers were still around - like guys who had made some money in life and were in their late 50's early 60's. so "everyone" started restoring these cars and the "supply" went up substantially. however, the potential buyers are dying off! people who know about a 68 Hemi Roadrunner and wanted one in "high school" are now in their 70's! they are experiencing health problems that are overcoming their love for old muscle cars. AND, the very rich guys who bought these cars as "investments" 10 years ago are being told by their financial advisers that NOW is the time to sell these cars. the drop in market values of these cars is a reflection of simple market forces: excess supply, decreasing demand. unless a car guy really wants to do all restoration himself, if you calculate the time, labor, cost of parts and body work and the cost of the original car - you are very close to investing the same amount of money you would to just go to mecum or barrett-jackson and buy a finished car. i will make a prediction right now: in 5 years or maybe sooner, you will be able to buy ANY "restored" muscle car from your 60's or 70's high school days for $20-$25k. there simply will be NO reason to buy an "old car" and spend a year "restoring" it. i certainly welcome hearing anyone's opposing opinion on my analysis. i will also add that i am currently working on my own 69 Cuda M-Code fastback that i hope to have on the road for this summer. at current prices, i will probably end up with just about as much money in this car as it would bring at an auction - and i will be doing the body work and paint and most of the mechanical work myself.

                      delivery at home1.jpg
                       
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                      • my68barracuda

                        my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                        I agree with reasons given for the drop in sales prices of muscle cars, and will add another.
                        In the last 5 years or so there has been a resurgence of new cars available with outstanding engine performance. Add in modern car features, fuel milage,,,you don’t get the thrill of driving a classic car, but you get performance that is every bit as good and then some.
                         
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                        • jtkaaa07

                          jtkaaa07 BossMan FABO Gold Member

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                          A Mr Norms A12 69 1/2 Super Bee went for $107,000 . Yeah I think we will continue to see the market soften, between the baby boomers getting older, and the big power offerings by Detroit, there will be a steady decline in the 60’s muscle cars.
                           
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                          • George Jets

                            George Jets 1967 Dart 2 Door FABO Gold Member

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                            Everything goes though it's cycles and market swings, good points above ^^^.

                            The Harley Davidson motorcycles have been through an interesting run. Street Rod cars were pretty dominate in the 80, then everything started to shift towards the Harley's and the freedoms they represent, everyone wanted one and there was a one year wait at the dealers to get them.

                            Then like the comments above the crowd started to shift and demand started to drop off. Lots of people were getting hurt from the unattentive drivers talking on their cell phones running into them, think this had a lot to do with people getting out of it as the crowd was getting older and they did not want to fight the elements anymore also.

                            Have noticed a huge drop in motorcycles just over a two year period, and the younger upcoming generation just does not seem to be interested in them.

                            The upside on the classic cars is that when you go to the local Classic Car Criuse Ins thoughout our nation, it is obvious lots of people still want to own these cars.

                            The Cassic Cars represent a time when things were not so complicated and hectic.

                            Think everyone still gets that, young and old.
                             
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                            • Matt Miller

                              Matt Miller Member

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                              Wow
                              That surprises me it went for $41K
                              I know the previous owner of the car, he may have sold it before the auction or he may have ran it through the auction.
                              It is a pretty nice car.

                              I agree prices have come down some, but the good cars still bring good money. I was at Mecum last week.
                              My take away was if a car is correctly restored to a high level or an original survivor it will bring good $ (Tim Welborn's cars did very well)
                              (Not sure what happened with the Bronze M Code If I knew it was going that low I would have tried to buy it)

                              A lot of cars I saw at Mecum had issues, poor paint and body work/replaced panels incorrect parts and other issues.
                              They looked good under the lights.
                              These cars bid to what they were worth. No real deals in my opinion.
                               
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                              • Dartnut

                                Dartnut Don't hate me because i'm beautiful

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                                I agree fully with this opinion.
                                WTH is the point to having a car if you don't drive it and enjoy it?
                                I can by a model for 100 bucks and put it on the shelf of my den if all I want to do is look at it.........
                                 
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                                • DentalDart

                                  DentalDart Well-Known Member

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                                  I mean the market for the cars softening is good for me right?!

                                  I understand the new Detroit muscle and that is probably a big reason too. I will add to that point though.

                                  When I bought my renegade in dec of 2017 I was actually looking at a challenger scat pack. Test drove it and walked away not to impressed. Sure it is "fast" but it didnt feel quick, it felt and looked like just another challenger with the same horrible blind spot. I've driven Tesla's, Porche GT3, Maserrati's, Ferraris, and various other super cars (friends and family members cars). For some reason they dont give you the same feeling of freedom or power as the old muscle car does, hell even my big turbo vr6 vw gti and supercharged vr6 gave me more enjoyment than those cars.

                                  I want a new muscle car and will probably get one at some point after a new jeep truck but the old Detroit muscle has stolen my heart, garage and pocket book and I'm 100% ok with that.
                                   
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                                  • Matt Miller

                                    Matt Miller Member

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                                    Well I just found out it was not the car I was thinking it was.
                                    That car has a white interior and no vinyl top. Same color and both Mr. Norm's cars.

                                    I don't know the car that went through BJ. Might have been a great deal, car may have had issues.
                                     
                                  • 72bluNblu

                                    72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                    Muscle cars have peaked in value, they’ll decline some more and then level out. This happens with every generation of cars/owners. Look at ‘50’s cars like the tri-5 Chevies. They were super hot in the late eighties/early nineties. They were dropping pretty substantially before the recession, fell off a cliff with everything else, and have stabilized since. They aren’t “cheap” now, but they’re nowhere near the peak.

                                    All you have to do is look 30-50 years after the build dates of the cars and toward the middle in that range you’ll find the peak of the market. Why? Because the majority of buyers spend money on cars they grew up with. That kid that was 10 years old when his dad brought home a ‘57 Chevy is gonna buy one when he finally has disposable income. When is that? Well probably sometime between when he’s 40 and 60 years old. We buy the cars we had in high school etc.

                                    So muscle cars are pretty much done. The recession screwed up the progression of things a little, they were peaking before that and got hammered, then kinda returned to a second peak here since the recession. But now they’re declining. They’ll drop off quick as the investors jump ship because the investment won’t pay dividends anymore. And because most of the rest of the guys that buy them are in 70’s and aren’t buying or driving like they used to. But they’ll level out when they get back to reasonable prices. Rare and super nice cars will still get good money.

                                    You can watch it all again with the late 70’s and early eighties cars right now, they’re peaking. Even the early eighties imports like the little Honda’s and Toyota’s are way up. Seems weird, but it’s not a performance thing, it’s a nostalgia thing.
                                     
                                    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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                                    • jtkaaa07

                                      jtkaaa07 BossMan FABO Gold Member

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                                      Unfortunately, the A bodies never get the respect they deserve, except from us that love them. I go to shows all the time and half the baby boomers I talk to never knew they made a GTS dart, they thought darts were all grandmas car’s. Barracuda’s didn’t get the recognition until 70 with the Cuda. I guess it’s kind of like Nova’s in the Chevy world lol. Anyway, most real muscle car people know who Mr Norms was, and with that provenance, in the dna, I sure thought that car would bring more money, not to mention the rarity, with only like 640 440 M codes being built. Just a little surprised is all I guess.
                                       
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                                      • jimharvard

                                        jimharvard JimHarvard FABO Gold Member

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                                        well... just one more depressing news from Barrett-Jackson to go with the 69 440 M-Code Dart for $41k. i just watched a beautiful "numbers matching", fully restored 68 Hemi 4 speed GTX sell for $69k! wow, five years ago that car would have been in the $125k range. so the math is getting easy now - a fully restored and rebuilt "original" 68 Hemi engine is worth $35k if you can find one. buying, restoring and painting a 68 GTX will cost $35k. so you could spend $70k and build a hemi GTX or you could just go to an auction and buy one already done.
                                         
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                                        • famous bob

                                          famous bob mopar misfit FABO Gold Member

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                                          Dis agree, the 68 hemi super stock cards got a hell of a bunch of attention, and still do , watch the crowd when an original 68 hemi s/s makes a pass !!
                                           
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                                          • jtkaaa07

                                            jtkaaa07 BossMan FABO Gold Member

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                                            Oh yes very true, forgot about them lol. But as far as run of the mill muscle cars I was referring to. Yeah those HEMI powered A super stockers were Animals!
                                             
                                          • barbee6043

                                            barbee6043 barbee 6043 FABO Gold Member

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                                            Looking back in time here. The stock market fell off its butt in what '87 or '8 and word to that investor type, was to invest in desirable musclecars, so there it goes. They drive up the prices of everything for several years, then the bottom falls out in mid 91, average guy figures it out in '92. I remember for several years, thereafter, the mopar market was dead basically, the average mopar guy had 3,4,5 project cars, 1 that drove, but he wanted to by some certain model. Well he could not sell any of his cars, to buy the one he really wanted!!! The investor was already long gone. So it rocked along.
                                            I should ad, that prices finally began to climb, maybe 10% per ear, till the recession of '07-8 took hold. There we go again!
                                            Then the rise of prices slowly start again, one day Mopars are junk, and then they are hot, then considered junk again. Back and forth. The cycle. The collector car hobby is really fickle. Anyone notice what darn 60's, 70's chevy trucks were bring now? Nuts.
                                            I agree, done cars will sell to the guy that wants such and has the $$. Projects have always been bought by the guy that either 1. Can not afford to pay the price of a done car all at once, or 2. wants to and enoys building his own.
                                            To me, it is terribly hard now days to find a good project car for a price it is actually worth. Most of the good projects have been restored. Many will be sold and restored a again.
                                            The modern musclecar is what it is, but I feel it helps keep interest in the car hobby in general. It will also supply projects to work on for decades!! Maybe before long, we will see a striped 2010 Hemi Challenger with NO AC, custom bare guts, 6 speed stick with a 4:10 rear, tubbed, just a fun toy for the street, and with a real weight reduction weighing less than a beached whale!!?????????????/
                                             
                                            Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
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                                            • Dartnut

                                              Dartnut Don't hate me because i'm beautiful

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                                              I agreed with you, but out of all fairness, the '68 GTX wasn't as good as it could have been.
                                              A very nice car for sure, it is what I would call a ''driver'' and there's nothing wrong with that in my book.
                                              As a matter of fact, that's the way it should be IMHO, too many cars are trailer queens as it is.........
                                               
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                                              • 66jim

                                                66jim Well-Known Member

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                                                The thing that may keep the muscle car valves relatively high for the near future is that they are simple easy to work on and fun to drive. Think about trying to "restore" a 2020 Challenger in the year 2050 good F'n luck. The more complex
                                                and chaotic things get the more people will look for simplicity. Investors will get
                                                burned on highs and lows. Anyone who thinks they can forecast the market based
                                                on prior history may be in for a surprise, IMO we have entered a new era of uncertainty.
                                                 
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