Bore Gauge Help

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dustymopar

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Hi, Have a block here that I need to check out for wear etc.

1. Once the rigde is cleaned, this will give me the original bore diameter - correct?

2. Measure just below the ridge where the rings meet will give me the bore diameter plus bore wear - correct?

The motor I am looking at I hoping just to at most re-ring. This will be temporary while I have another rebuilt.....What is the maximum wear I can get away with, before a rebore is needed?

Any other useful tips would be welcome - TIA!
 
Standard bore size depends on engine. What engine do you have?

Each stock bore has a tolerance. Plus you must measure the taper and out of round to see if they are in spec.

No need to remove the ridge to measure the bore, only before you hone/bore. And personally I would let a machine shop remove the ridge and bore/hone the cylinders.
 
Thanks, its a 383. I haven't removed the ridge, just cleaned the crap off it. The ridge doesnt appear very deep. The std bore is 4.25 for a 383 and the ridge is measuring 4.26 so I'm guessing this has had 10 tho bore in the past or my gauge needs calibrating....

What sort of measurements am I looking for down the hole, and how far?
 
Was the engine running before you removed the cylinder heads? Did it do so without excessive blow-by (crankcase pressure)?

If so, you could remove the ridge, hone the bores, replace the rings with the appropriate size and it will run again. The engine would by no means be new or rebuilt, but should give reasonable service if it was basically a healthy engine beforehand.

If the engine has more than a few thousand miles, the bores are almost certainly beyond factory production tolerances.
 
No. Once the ridge is removed, that part of the cylinder will NOT be standard size any longer. The RIDGE itself IS the standard diameter. However, the ridge is too narrow to get a good measurement on. I always just go down to the bottom of the bore,beyond the ring travel in the bottom of the cylinder like the book says and take the measurement there. There's probably still cross hatch down there. Compare measurement with the measurement you get about .500" of an inch below the ridge. This will be where the wear is greatest, again, like the manual says. You do have an engine manual, right?
 
Chief, I have never had this motor running, its just one I have had hanging around....I am not looking for a new motor out of it, just something to run for a bit while I get my other motor together....


Scamp, The way I see it is that the ridge should indicate the size of the bore when it was last machined. I have measured just below the ridge where the rings make contact guessing that that is where the main wear will occur. This is what you are saying isn't it....Yes, I have a manual, and pretty much tells you to do the above along with a measurement at the bottom of the bore and that's it.....

Without knowing how much taper to expect and knowing how much wear tips the balance for a rebore and new pistons to be needed, the measurements mean nothing.....I have been advised that any more than .004 wear, then a rebore is require, under that, provided that the bores are in good condition, then new rings may keep things going for a bit longer....

Does anyone agree with that?
 
No. Once the ridge is removed, that part of the cylinder will NOT be standard size any longer. The RIDGE itself IS the standard diameter. However, the ridge is too narrow to get a good measurement on. I always just go down to the bottom of the bore,beyond the ring travel in the bottom of the cylinder like the book says and take the measurement there. There's probably still cross hatch down there. Compare measurement with the measurement you get about .500" of an inch below the ridge.


Only thing I'll add is I like to check for taper on the pin axis (front to back), 90° to it (side to side or thrust axis), plus 45° to either side of the thrust. You might be surprised at how "unround" a "good running, round bore" is. If the taper is less than .002 I'd re-ring using file-to-fit rings as long as the pistons are not too worn. More than that and it gets new everything.
 
Chief, I have never had this motor running, its just one I have had hanging around....I am not looking for a new motor out of it, just something to run for a bit while I get my other motor together....


Scamp, The way I see it is that the ridge should indicate the size of the bore when it was last machined. I have measured just below the ridge where the rings make contact guessing that that is where the main wear will occur. This is what you are saying isn't it....Yes, I have a manual, and pretty much tells you to do the above along with a measurement at the bottom of the bore and that's it.....

Without knowing how much taper to expect and knowing how much wear tips the balance for a rebore and new pistons to be needed, the measurements mean nothing.....I have been advised that any more than .004 wear, then a rebore is require, under that, provided that the bores are in good condition, then new rings may keep things going for a bit longer....

Does anyone agree with that?

Factory 1967 service manual: 383 CID, Maximum out of round before needing machining = .005". Maximum taper before needing machining = .010"

The above specifications tell you that it is allowable for the cylinder bore to be larger than .004' wear before needing bored. However of you have intentions of building a "street bruiser" the less taper you have the better it will seal the rings and run better. If your intentions are to just get an engine together as you mentioned for a little while, you might get away with just rings.
However with the dimensions you posted: 4.25" origional bore taken at the very top of the cylinder bore (or you could measure it below the ring travel and it should be the same measurment) VERSUS the measurement you took below the ridge of 4.26" that tell me you have .010" wear in the cylinder. You might get piston slap and it wouldn't seal really well but if you were to cut out the ridge, hone the cylinders and new set of "STANDARD" rings it would indeed run for you till you build your other engine. IT WILL NOT last for ever!!!! My .02
 
When i said the ridge was standard bore...maybe I shouldda said unworn instead. That's all I meant. You're gettin some fine advice here. Spcially the pistin location thing. I've always been a bit more forgiving because of budget constraints with my personal stuff. I've run a lot of engines with bore and piston wear out of spec and believe it or not, those were some of the best running engines. As long as you buy rings accordingly and file fit them back to spec, an engine like that will run better and longer than you think.....although it is not the correct way. I'll add this......i built my first engine in 1976. Been doin it ever since. Not one single time have I ever removed a ridge in all that time and I've never broken a ring or never had any trouble whatsoever. I've torn down some pretty sloppy engines, too.
 
Mr Darts, Thanks for that - it helps alot and gives me something to work from! No, I don't need to it to run forever, just need it to serve a purpose for a while. It's just a Hipo motor with a Hipo cam, so won't be expecting much from it.

Thanks8)
 
And thanks everyone else! - I hear what it said on the file fit rings thing

Thanks!
 
And thanks everyone else! - I hear what it said on the file fit rings thing

Thanks!

No problem. have you got a ring filer? the little manual ones are pretty cheap and do a nice job. I always finish the ends of mine with an emory board. they work perfect for it. Just make sure you don't have any flakes on the ends when done and the ends are good and smooth.
 
Yip, I have one of those filers, emery board is a great tip - shall raid the wife's handbag lol!

Seriously, thanks guys, all your input is appreciated!
 
And thanks everyone else! - I hear what it said on the file fit rings thing

Thanks!

Word of caution here on file fit rings with a tapered cylinder bore, you CAN'T fit the new rings at the top of their travel and have them be good at the bottom because there is a good chance they will be TOO tight!

Most cast iron ring manufactures recomend .004" gap for every 1" of cylinder bore, in other words on a 4" bore you will need .016" ring gap. Now the kicker, if you have a worn cylinder with .010" taper and you file fit the rings to .016" at the most worn area (hence the top of the ring wear area) and then the rings travel to the bottom of their travel where there is very little cylinder wear, the gap will get to smaller and wear out the new rings very fast from being to tight.

My .02
 
I have tried measuring bores w/ inexpensive telescoping bore gages. They are 2 finger, spring-loaded "T" shaped with a knob to lock the dimension, pull out and measure w/ a caliper. I have trouble getting consistent readings, usually varying ~3 mils. They seem to work best when you lightly tighten the knob, then tilt them back & forth so the cyl diameter pushes them in. May be good enough to help decide if you need a rebore = buy new pistons, maybe scrap engine when you see the price.

I get the best readings by placing a new piston ring in the bore, pushing down mid-way and square w/ a piston, and measuring the end gap. If in spec (usually <12 mils?), can just re-hone. Of course, the problem is you must buy new rings first, thus start w/ method 1. Of course, if your old ring gaps are in spec, you are already there, assuming standard ones.

You can also measure w/ feeler gages between the bore and piston skirt to determine if piston slap would be a problem. There is actually a way to knurl the skirt metal so it fits tighter, but don't know if commonly done. There are special piston rings that overlap so no end gap, or buy oversized ones and file to size.

Many will recommend just take to a shop and pay big bucks. Reasons to re-ring yourself:
1) Shops are happy to rebuild a fine engine. When you overbore, you can't go back
2) Rings have much less surface area than the cylinder wall, so most wear occurs to the rings. If you can still see factory honing marks everywhere in the cylinder, it can't be very worn (unless re-honed already). Honing scratches are ~1 mil deep?
3) If you didn't hear piston slap before, you probably won't after a re-hone and re-ring.
4) It isn't hard to hone and re-ring with the block in the car. No need to unbolt from tranny, lines, remove hood (try getting that back right and not scratching paint).
5) If pulling the heads anyway, and engine >100K miles since the last re-ring, smart to replace the rings. New rings will only make it better. De-glazing cylinders always helps oil control, sealing and wear.

If an in-car re-ring, always remove the rear main bearing and change the rear seal. If the bearing looks good (usually), I don't change main bearings. Might also use plastigage. You can replace them with the crank in. Always replace rod bearings since you remove the connecting rods, and they usually look worse ("ant farm" tracks from carbon).

On my 2.4L Plymouth, I had to pulled the head at 97K to replace the badly designed head gasket w/ a new MLS type. I took the head in for a valve job (probably unneeded) and re-ringed in car. The new ring gaps were well within spec and the cylinders only slightly glazed. It was probably unneeded, but not much extra time and parts. Now I know the engine should be fine for another 200k miles. Note: on newer engines (Magnums up), you can't replace the rear seal without removing the transmission, but they are a better seal.
 
Don't forget to check ring groove clearance on the pistons too. If the rings flop around, there's no point and you could break a ring ruining your block and that's NDG. Check the skirts too. If they're wasted it'll be pretty obvious but measuring never hurts since you just want a short term runner.

It'll run with sloppy bore/piston/piston pin clearance but sloppy ring grooves will ruin an engine block.
 
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