Bottom of lifter worn thru
- Thread starter witteman
- Start date
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PanGasket
has cork sides
then why would they be posting break-in videos?
fishy68
Tyr Fryr's Inc.
Were they actually called "cam break in video" or just break in video? Every new engine when first fired up is considered on 'break-in" no matter what style cam it is. If they were indeed called "cam break in video" then they were wrong to idle them, as Rob said
That's a possibility. A lot of.people ,post on YouTube.
PanGasket
has cork sides
they were posted on here as "cam break-in" the few that I've seen.
yeah and youtube has plenty of people claiming big number too on their videos. not alot of bright people
That is true DarTT...
PanGasket
has cork sides
I hope I'm not coming off as brash or anything but I absolutely hate just seeing members who I know have time and money in their car, because obviously a cam swap ain't free or real easy, just stand there while there car idles and eats up the lifters and cam. I just can't help but sit here and be like "No! What are you doing?! Don't let it idle! Did they even read the instructions?!:banghead:"
Hell no! The loss of a lifter, got me here. (Chevy/Scamp swap).Agree.
moper
Well-Known Member
The videos I have on You Tube are not cam break ins... just running the engine on the stand. So I'd think a general assumption is just that.
I agree 100% that most guys do not understand what happens or how it happens when a cam breaks in, or what steps should be taken from basic assembly to "turning the key". The issues with cams are not manufacturer, not oil, not anything but builder error as far as I'm concerned. Because even if the materials you work with change, it's ultimately the builder's responsibility to make what's available work for the customer.
to the OP - yes - you need to replace the cam and lifters and you should pull the engine and check for damage to the cylinder bores and bearings because that's where all that powdered hardened steel went.
I agree 100% that most guys do not understand what happens or how it happens when a cam breaks in, or what steps should be taken from basic assembly to "turning the key". The issues with cams are not manufacturer, not oil, not anything but builder error as far as I'm concerned. Because even if the materials you work with change, it's ultimately the builder's responsibility to make what's available work for the customer.
to the OP - yes - you need to replace the cam and lifters and you should pull the engine and check for damage to the cylinder bores and bearings because that's where all that powdered hardened steel went.
No, the few videos I am speaking of were clearly camshaft break in videos with flat tappet cams.
68gtxman
I used to reMember
I wish the O.P. said why he pulled the lifters to inspect them. Was engine power down, was a strange noise coming out of it, did the engine not start, etc.???
What indications would one expect when one or more lifters are wiped?
What indications would one expect when one or more lifters are wiped?
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
Lessee here....(Breaks out adding machine)
YOUR time, YOUR replacement gaskets, YOUR metal-filled motor (cam, lifters, oil pumps, bearings, etc. etc.) YOU paying someone else for machine work, YOUR coolant, YOUR oil, YOUR oil filter, possibly a tow...
Yeah, you're right, it's way cheaper to run a flat tappet-cam, especially with the oil additives and break-in springs and blah blah blah. ;-)
The cam lobes are never in the center of the lifter bore. This causes the lifter to spin when the lobe travels under it.
If the lifter doesn't spin when first starting the motor. A lifter will never spin and will wear.
Always make sure the lifter fits smooth in the bore when installing. And never let the motor go under 2500 for the first 20 minutes to 1/2 hour.
Do not shut the motor off. so you need to make sure everything is correct before you start a new motor.
Ypou can use new lifters on a new cam but never used lifters on any cam or lobe except the lobe it was on.
Oh yeah your motor does need to come apart to be cleaned and checked for wear on other parts.
Preload is the critical factor that is most overlooked on engine assembly. Larger then factory cams have a smaller base circle. So the lobes not bigger the base circle is smaller. This then calls for a longer lifter , pushrods, or adjustable rockers. Incorrect preload will also cause premature wear.
So if you install a larger cam valve adjustment is a must , Hydraulic or solid. No getting around it. 1/2 preload for break in to keep the lifter against the lobe. You can back it off to Zero once its broke in to prevent float. Or leave it where it is.
The reason for keeping the RPMs high also is to keep the oil flowing around the lifter so it floats in the bore. and keeps spinning while the lobe takes its contour.
Sometimes cam lobes on cheap cams are not all positioned correctly and prevent spin. This is how they tell if it was a faulty cam or improper break in. Just take a measurement. Also a good reason to position and true the bores with bronze bushings.
If the lifter doesn't spin when first starting the motor. A lifter will never spin and will wear.
Always make sure the lifter fits smooth in the bore when installing. And never let the motor go under 2500 for the first 20 minutes to 1/2 hour.
Do not shut the motor off. so you need to make sure everything is correct before you start a new motor.
Ypou can use new lifters on a new cam but never used lifters on any cam or lobe except the lobe it was on.
Oh yeah your motor does need to come apart to be cleaned and checked for wear on other parts.
Preload is the critical factor that is most overlooked on engine assembly. Larger then factory cams have a smaller base circle. So the lobes not bigger the base circle is smaller. This then calls for a longer lifter , pushrods, or adjustable rockers. Incorrect preload will also cause premature wear.
So if you install a larger cam valve adjustment is a must , Hydraulic or solid. No getting around it. 1/2 preload for break in to keep the lifter against the lobe. You can back it off to Zero once its broke in to prevent float. Or leave it where it is.
The reason for keeping the RPMs high also is to keep the oil flowing around the lifter so it floats in the bore. and keeps spinning while the lobe takes its contour.
Sometimes cam lobes on cheap cams are not all positioned correctly and prevent spin. This is how they tell if it was a faulty cam or improper break in. Just take a measurement. Also a good reason to position and true the bores with bronze bushings.
moper
Well-Known Member
Lessee here....(Breaks out adding machine)
YOUR time, YOUR replacement gaskets, YOUR metal-filled motor (cam, lifters, oil pumps, bearings, etc. etc.) YOU paying someone else for machine work, YOUR coolant, YOUR oil, YOUR oil filter, possibly a tow...
Yeah, you're right, it's way cheaper to run a flat tappet-cam, especially with the oil additives and break-in springs and blah blah blah. ;-)
I'm not sure about others - but I don't account for incompetence when i'm developing a budget. It certainly would be easier to just say "it's going to cost 200% becuase I'm certain someone will miss something..." lol
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Pretty much my point. I guess the hundreds of thousands of us still running flat tappets are just doomed.
We are all doomed when the zombies come
The roller vs flat tappet is almost like the iron heads vs aluminum debate. There will never be a consensus. I will say that the magnum stroker I have was nice to fire up and not have to worry about break in. I have nightmares about this 440, but really it isn't anything that hasn't been done a million times before without issue. We just get to read about the problems because people don't come to forums to brag about how well their cam swap went, they come her looking for info on why everything went to hell. like a worn through lifter. When the oil companies took the zinc out people were wiping lobes left and right and blaming it on the manufacturer and giving them a terrible rep that some still have to recovered from and others completely changed their warranties to cover their bums from us!
The roller vs flat tappet is almost like the iron heads vs aluminum debate. There will never be a consensus. I will say that the magnum stroker I have was nice to fire up and not have to worry about break in. I have nightmares about this 440, but really it isn't anything that hasn't been done a million times before without issue. We just get to read about the problems because people don't come to forums to brag about how well their cam swap went, they come her looking for info on why everything went to hell. like a worn through lifter. When the oil companies took the zinc out people were wiping lobes left and right and blaming it on the manufacturer and giving them a terrible rep that some still have to recovered from and others completely changed their warranties to cover their bums from us!
Some people I know don't even use zinc additives. I don't know if it is because they are running mild RV cams in small block GM products, but I start talking about additive and they get a deer in the headlight look like,"what ever dude".
PanGasket
has cork sides
additive packages are very important in oil nowadays. determines how your engine wears. alot of people just throw some oil in and go and assume its fine and dandy
moparclown
Well-Known Member
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I hold no one responsible for my stuff blowing all to hell
I had this running now for 5 years of total abuse as I try to beat every last bit of HP out of it every chance I get(Just ask member Fan of Petty).:glasses7:I ballooned a converter,destroyed a sure grip unit and folded a fan that wiped out a brand new radiator(because I wouldn't lose to a camaro at the Adirondack nationals)
And now I have a nice purple shaft cam to hang on the wall,cost me some $$$$ and some time to fix the mess but its back together raising hell again:cheers:
Plus it got me to redo my grilles as they were out anyway
I had this running now for 5 years of total abuse as I try to beat every last bit of HP out of it every chance I get(Just ask member Fan of Petty).:glasses7:I ballooned a converter,destroyed a sure grip unit and folded a fan that wiped out a brand new radiator(because I wouldn't lose to a camaro at the Adirondack nationals)
And now I have a nice purple shaft cam to hang on the wall,cost me some $$$$ and some time to fix the mess but its back together raising hell again:cheers:
Plus it got me to redo my grilles as they were out anyway
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
inkjunkie
Well-Known Member
Excuse the hi-jack......suppose someone has a motor with a flat tappet cam that has been sitting for a while.....it was a driver for a while. I realize that the break in of cam/lifters is done but what should be done other than yank the dist. and spin the pump up to get oil every where again? Should a zinc additive be used just as a safeguard?
Threads like this convince me that a roller cam will be used when I get around to my motor some decade....
PanGasket
has cork sides
yes. I think so. that and id throw some lube on the bottom of the lifters as a precaution. but Im no expert by far. Rob will know for sure
Locomotion
Well-Known Member
Zinc and other break-in additives aren't just for break-in. They also help protect the parts throughout their life. The main thing is the cam and flat tappet lifters. While it's most important to get those components to "break-in", "wear-in", etc., during the initial start up, the high pressures causing metal-to-metal contact between the cam & flat tappet lifters remain and needs to be addressed. So High zinc oils are recommended to protect those parts at the contact area. No other areas in an engine are subject to such high and concentrated loads. Newer engines aren't as critical because they often have roller lifters.
More info from Amsoil:
[ame]http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/MotorOil/TSB%20MO-2007-08-08%20Flat%20Tappet.pdf[/ame]
More info from Amsoil:
[ame]http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/MotorOil/TSB%20MO-2007-08-08%20Flat%20Tappet.pdf[/ame]
Locomotion
Well-Known Member
I agree with DarTT. Even though the cam/lifters are "broke-in", it would be wise to lube it because the lobes and lifters can actually be dry, or almost, after all that time. Even with priming the oil pump, the cam will rotate several times before enough oil is pressure fed, spit out from between all the parts and splashed onto the cam to lubricate it. It just takes a split second of dry friction to start terminal wear.
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