Break In Disaster????????

[AJ/FormS]

Jake
A second gauge could be a simpler screw-into-the-hole item. I have a couple of gauges on 2 ft hi-pressure hoses,and a box of adapters that let's me plumb into just about anything.Engine Tranny, Fuel,you name it.You wouldn't need anything like that.

As to reasons for such a high reading at idle, I'm gonna wait for a more experienced builder to chime in here, cuz my opinions on this matter have been poo-pooed in the past.

Oh, I see I'm a slow typer again. I need to supercharge my finger(no s)!

Yeah, good deal on the bolt

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Some more info please: What weight of oil? And how warm is warm? What RPM's? What oil pump; standard or high volume or high pressure?

Did you put in a Melling oil pump? Per KrazyKuda, they use a 72 psi relief spring. We primed our 340 last week, with 10W30 oil and a Melling HV oil pump with the heavier spring in it (presumably the 72 psi spring). At 600 rpm on the pump (equivalent to 1200 crank RPM), it produced 67 psi with room temp 10W30 oil on a 60's Stewart Warner gauge.

Dunno any other way to test the actual pressure than a gauge. Run up your RPM's and if it does not gain more pressure, then that is likely where your relief spring is set. If it keeps going up with RPM in the to 80+ psi range or higher, then it is time to think about a relief spring issue.... or a bad gauge.

And good deal on the rocker shaft bolt!

I used Comp cams 10w 30 break in oil and this is a standard melling oil pump. I had it to about normal running temp based on the c/h gauge and i raised the rmps a bit and the oil pressure went up slightly. It idles at about 850 and i went to about 1300.

Jake

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Jake
A second gauge could be a simpler screw-into-the-hole item. I have a couple of gauges on 2 ft hi-pressure hoses,and a box of adapters that let's me plumb into just about anything.Engine Tranny, Fuel,you name it.You wouldn't need anything like that.

As to reasons for such a high reading at idle, I'm gonna wait for a more experienced builder to chime in here, cuz my opinions on this matter have been poo-pooed in the past.

Ok, ill look at autozone and see what they have that might be a better option. Thanks for the help!!


Jake

 

[nm9stheham]

Well, per KK's info on the Mellings, a 72 psi spring would be standard in either the HV or standard pump. Push the RPM's up to 2000 or so and see if it rises much more. The idea is to see if the pressure levels off versus RPM in the low 70's range.

If this is a new pump, it may be tight enough to push the pressures up. BTW, the oil will take considerably longer to warm up than the cooling system. So it is hard to say how warm it really was in your test.

What were your main and rod bearing clearances? And did you check rod side clearances to the sides of the crank journals? Oil filter setup and brand/model? Hydraulic lifters?

It sounds like the oil pressure is getting to the whole engine OK (at least through the whole right gallery), if you got some spewing on the rocker shaft.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Well, per KK's info on the Mellings, a 72 psi spring would be standard in either the HV or standard pump. Push the RPM's up to 2000 or so and see if it rises much more. The idea is to see if the pressure levels off versus RPM in the low 70's range.

If this is a new pump, it may be tight enough to push the pressures up. BTW, the oil will take considerably longer to warm up than the cooling system. So it is hard to say how warm it really was in your test.

What were your main and rod bearing clearances? And did you check rod side clearances to the sides of the crank journals? Oil filter setup and brand/model? Hydraulic lifters?

It sounds like the oil pressure is getting to the whole engine OK (at least through the whole right gallery), if you got some spewing on the rocker shaft.

Ok, ill go out and have a second run. I believe the clearances were .010 and .0018. Filter is mopar P4452890. Yes comp hydraulic lifters, about .20 lash.

Jake

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Well, per KK's info on the Mellings, a 72 psi spring would be standard in either the HV or standard pump. Push the RPM's up to 2000 or so and see if it rises much more. The idea is to see if the pressure levels off versus RPM in the low 70's range.

If this is a new pump, it may be tight enough to push the pressures up. BTW, the oil will take considerably longer to warm up than the cooling system. So it is hard to say how warm it really was in your test.

What were your main and rod bearing clearances? And did you check rod side clearances to the sides of the crank journals? Oil filter setup and brand/model? Hydraulic lifters?

It sounds like the oil pressure is getting to the whole engine OK (at least through the whole right gallery), if you got some spewing on the rocker shaft.

I gave it another go and ran into another couple of things. When i reved it up the gauge read 85lbs and kept steady at about 2300. I took the other valve cover off and realized i had a similar issue like the other side but this one i cant seem to fix. It is a steady flow from the first bolt closest to the fire wall, i tapped it and ran the bolt through without the shaft, i switched the fasteners around and its still a constant flow. I though maybe it was out of round and thats why it was leaking but it just doesnt seem to stop. Can this high amount of oil pressure cause this, it seams that the rest of them seal like theyre supposed to. These are banana rockers that were in great condition when pulled so id be skeptical to think it was bad, and i do have another on i could try but its prettty fried like it ran short of oil at some point in its life. Does anyone sell banana rockers??

Jake

 

[nm9stheham]

With 10W30, 85 psi seems too high for a standard Melling pump. So did you rev past 2300 and see what the pressure did, or are you saying that the pressure leveled off at 85 psi for RPM's higher than 2300?

Time to check with another gauge IMO, and check at yet higher RPM's to see if the pressure keeps on climbing. The 85 psi is a potential concern (to me) for something not right around the relief spring in the oil pump. Yes I would suspect the oil pressure is a possible issue for the rocker; the other prime suspect is a fully grooved cam bearing, or something around the rocker shaft hole.

BTW, did you check the hole diameters in the rockers? They should be .375". (3/8") As I understand it, the rockers are the same with and without banana grooves.

 

[Cudafever]

I would check for burs or nicks in the washer and shaft. if it's good and still leaks, buy some brass shim stock, cut to fit and install. if there is no crack in the shaft at the bolt hole, problem solved.

The oil pressure is high BUT, my last eng. hand 80 at idle cold and around 65 when hot. rev it up when eng was hot and it would still go up past 80(my gauge only when to 80) ran that way for years(was running 20w50 oil) Ended up going to a synthetic 0w40

my 340 ran for 10 years on that high oil pressure, before i when to the thinner oil.

Personally i thing you ended up with a High volume pump, for the price of a stock one. that's what i had.

After you get it broke in, run a thinner eng oil and see what it does. BEFORE, you go pulling The oil pan.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

With 10W30, 85 psi seems too high for a standard Melling pump. So did you rev past 2300 and see what the pressure did, or are you saying that the pressure leveled off at 85 psi for RPM's higher than 2300?

Time to check with another gauge IMO, and check at yet higher RPM's to see if the pressure keeps on climbing. The 85 psi is a potential concern (to me) for something not right around the relief spring in the oil pump. Yes I would suspect the oil pressure is a possible issue for the rocker; the other prime suspect is a fully grooved cam bearing, or something around the rocker shaft hole.

BTW, did you check the hole diameters in the rockers? They should be .375". (3/8") As I understand it, the rockers are the same with and without banana grooves.

Ok, so heres what i have found out as of today. I drove it to work today because i only live 2.5 miles from work and it stayed pretty much 75, but on the way home i took it to the muffler shop around the corner and to get gas and i assume it was to temp because it dropped to 45 at idle but the slightest raise in rmp and it went right back to 70. I got it up 65 at about 3000 and it didnt pass 80 lbs so its a bit more confussing i guess. Also, i tried new gaskets with sealer and letting them sit overnight and this thing is still leaking out of the back of both valve covers, im not sure what else to do????

Jake

I would check for burs or nicks in the washer and shaft. if it's good and still leaks, buy some brass shim stock, cut to fit and install. if there is no crack in the shaft at the bolt hole, problem solved.

The oil pressure is high BUT, my last eng. hand 80 at idle cold and around 65 when hot. rev it up when eng was hot and it would still go up past 80(my gauge only when to 80) ran that way for years(was running 20w50 oil) Ended up going to a synthetic 0w40

my 340 ran for 10 years on that high oil pressure, before i when to the thinner oil.

Personally i thing you ended up with a High volume pump, for the price of a stock one. that's what i had.

After you get it broke in, run a thinner eng oil and see what it does. BEFORE, you go pulling The oil pan.

Where would i find that?? Local?? I wonder if i did get a HV pump as well but cant get around this leeaking from the rockers. I might look into other shafts but i feel like the pressure is whats causing it to do that.

Jake

 

[AJ/FormS]

I wonder if your valve spring pressure is high enough to bend that tube, and lift/tilt it off the saddle. I put aftermarket clamps on mine, to prevent such a possibility. But I thought those grooved tubes were made of a thick-walled stuff.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

I wonder if your valve spring pressure is high enough to bend that tube, and lift/tilt it off the saddle. I put aftermarket clamps on mine, to prevent such a possibility.

Where would i get better clamps from?'


Jake

 

[AJ/FormS]

Back up the bus, Gus. First prove the theory.
What are you torquing those bolts down to?What kind of spring pressures are you running? And what arm-ratio?, And what wall thickness?
Remember, I put mine on as a prevention, cuz I like to run pressure, cuz I like the valves to close when the cam tells 'em to. Especially at 7000plus rpm.I hate lifter pump-up. And with a 4spd,no rev limiter (cheapskate-broke actually), and a factory type shifter, missed shifts are fairly common.And so I do everything possible to prevent it. Within reason.
And no my little 230* cam doesn't need to go to 7000plus. But it does. And it's still pulling(Hughes cam). And it sounds awesome! And so I let it go there and hang it there for a bit, letting the tires catch up. Then I shift and do it again!
But ok, mine are blue-anodized aluminum anvils, and I bought them out of the Mopar Performance catalog about 15 years ago.I have no idea who manufactured them.

My factory service manual lists those bolts as 3/8-16 and 30ftlbs. IIRC those are 5/16 bolts aren't they? Ummmmmmmmmmmm maybe not, it's been a while. A 5/16 bolt would be 15 ftlbs.

 

[Cudafever]

Ok, so heres what i have found out as of today. I drove it to work today because i only live 2.5 miles from work and it stayed pretty much 75, but on the way home i took it to the muffler shop around the corner and to get gas and i assume it was to temp because it dropped to 45 at idle but the slightest raise in rmp and it went right back to 70. I got it up 65 at about 3000 and it didnt pass 80 lbs so its a bit more confussing i guess. Also, i tried new gaskets with sealer and letting them sit overnight and this thing is still leaking out of the back of both valve covers, im not sure what else to do????

Jake



Where would i find that?? Local?? I wonder if i did get a HV pump as well but cant get around this leeaking from the rockers. I might look into other shafts but i feel like the pressure is whats causing it to do that.

Jake

Probably a search on the internet would be the easiest. Your local parts store could get it.

 

[jimjimjimmy]

I did a 3 8 teen once with a hv melling pump and it would balloon oil filters at start up pulled the pump apart and the cap that holds the relief was put in backwards at the factory and apparently this is common and there is a thread on this here somewhere .I put it back together properly and my oil pressure went to normal.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Back up the bus, Gus. First prove the theory.
What are you torquing those bolts down to?What kind of spring pressures are you running? And what arm-ratio?, And what wall thickness?
Remember, I put mine on as a prevention, cuz I like to run pressure, cuz I like the valves to close when the cam tells 'em to. Especially at 7000plus rpm.I hate lifter pump-up. And with a 4spd,no rev limiter(cheapskate-broke actually), and a factory type shifter, missed shifts are fairly common.And so I do everything possible to prevent it. Within reason.
But ok, mine are blue-anodized aluminum anvils, and I bought them out of the Mopar Performance catalog about 15 years ago.I have no idea who manufactured them.

These are stock adjustable 273 rockers with banana groove shafts tightened to 17 pounds. I think they still sell them after a look through summit. I still dont get how theyre flowing out of 2 different bolts on 2 differnt heads.


Jake

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

I did a 3 8 teen once with a hv melling pump and it would balloon oil filters at start up pulled the pump apart and the cap that holds the relief was put in backwards at the factory and apparently this is common and there is a thread on this here somewhere .I put it back together properly and my oil pressure went to normal.

I really hope that isnt the case since i just put the engine in the car, i want to try every other avenue before i come to that one.


Jake

 

[Cudafever]

Is your valve cover hitting the intake, holding it up? The gasket wont crush, causing the leak.

Had this problem with a MP Valve covers.

If your valve covers were sealed you would even know you had the leaky rocker shaft...........

are you sure its not leaking from the back of the intake manifold? Clean that hole area with brake cleaner, so it's dry. start it and check with a mirror.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Whoa! they are not two different bolts. Well yes and no. The oil comes up on the driver's side, into the second from the front pedestal, and on the passenger side,it's second from the rear pedestal. But as far as the heads are concerned, the oil comes up through the second from the left pedestal, as you are bending over the fender.
A similar way to remember the notch orientation, for me, has always been, down and to the left, as you are leaning over the fender.

 

[nm9stheham]

im not sure what else to do???? Jake

OK, on the driving tests.
1. Put on another oil pressure gauge and re-check
2. Brass shim stock may be at the local hardware store
3. One possible issue with higher pressure is blowing out oil filter gaskets. You are not quite there in my experience as it sounds like you are going no higher than 80 psi (glad you checked), but close. jimjimjimmy's experience is the concern: relief spring wrong or spring plug put in backwards or relief valve stuck in its bore. Higher weight oil and colder temps will make the pressure higher.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Whoa! they are not two different bolts. Well yes and no. The oil comes up on the driver's side, into the second from the front pedestal, and on the passenger side,it's second from the rear pedestal. But as far as the heads are concerned, the oil comes up through the second from the left pedestal, as you are bending over the fender.
A similar way to remember the notch orientation, for me, has always been, down and to the left, as you are leaning over the fender.

I was saying that my leak is coming from spots where the oil isnt directly feeding from and that is the 2nd bolt from the firewall on the drivers and the 1st bolt from the firewall on the passenger side, thats the odd part to me and i think thats why it is so prone to leaking from the back on both the heads. Thanks for the info!!

Jake

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

OK, on the driving tests.
1. Put on another oil pressure gauge and re-check
2. Brass shim stock may be at the local hardware store
3. One possible issue with higher pressure is blowing out oil filter gaskets. You are not quite there in my experience as it sounds like you are going no higher than 80 psi (glad you checked), but close. jimjimjimmy's experience is the concern: relief spring wrong or spring plug put in backwards or relief valve stuck in its bore. Higher weight oil and colder temps will make the pressure higher.

Well, ill look into the shims tonight. Ill find another gauge, but feel the only ones are going to be of less value than the one i have, which doesnt really say much i guess. I guess what i am wondering at this point is when do i decide to pull this out and go through it???? It doesnt seem that theres a whole lot left to try???

Jake

 

[AJ/FormS]

Got it!

Kinda makes you wonder if the tubes have been crushed out-of-round....

 

[nm9stheham]

Kinda makes you wonder if the tubes have been crushed out-of-round....

If so much out-of-round as to leak, then I suspect you would not be able to slide the rockers over that end.

OP, the gauge suggestion is because it is easy and non-invasive, and while the other gauges' quality may not be any better, the one you have just may be well out of whack. You can't guess at it being accurate or not; you have to compare to something else, or directly measure it.

The leaks can be anywhere if the pressure is too high inside the rocker shaft. If you have not done all of the below:
- I would take of the rockers shafts and make sure they are clean, use some 400 grit wet-or-dry and polish the shafts just a bit; look inside the rocers to make sure they are not varnished up and too tight. The point is to make sure the flow OUT of the shafts is what it should be; if anything is blocked up badly, then the pressure may rise excessively inside the shaft.
- Then, take the shafts' end plugs out, (get new ones at NAPA) clean the insides of the shafts then make sure the oiling holes to each rocker are clear, check shaft diameters everywhere, and check those bolt holes in the shafts for inside diameter. Lots to check there and that is non-invasive and easy to do to be sure that is all on spec and flowing right.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Well I learned a lotta things from my dad, but one thing he used to say that ticked me off every time I heard it; "not necessarily".
So what's that got to do with anything? Well let's suppose for a sec that a previous builder crushed those pipes. Now lets suppose (not Jake here) a newbe comes along an unbolts them and takes 'em over to the parts washer, for a bath. I seen a few guys do just that; wash them fully assembled cuz they don't want to mix 'em up. Then a blowdry and off they go to the ready shelf. When assembly time comes,on they go, Now if they had been crushed, you might never have known it . Except that if it applies here,Jake here caught it, kinda by accident.
I'm not saying they're crushed, just that a couple of minutes with a mike would rule it out. And you just advised him to remove them for inspection( which is a good thing), so a quick miking would rule it out.
Oh how I came to hate "not necessarily". Now that he's gone, and I'm going soon, I remember those words fondly.

 

[xLURKxDOGx]

Got it!

Kinda makes you wonder if the tubes have been crushed out-of-round....

I checked but not with a mic, and i was able to slide them on and off with no issue. That doesnt mean theyre not shot but ill grab a mic from work tomorrow.

If so much out-of-round as to leak, then I suspect you would not be able to slide the rockers over that end.

OP, the gauge suggestion is because it is easy and non-invasive, and while the other gauges' quality may not be any better, the one you have just may be well out of whack. You can't guess at it being accurate or not; you have to compare to something else, or directly measure it.

The leaks can be anywhere if the pressure is too high inside the rocker shaft. If you have not done all of the below:
- I would take of the rockers shafts and make sure they are clean, use some 400 grit wet-or-dry and polish the shafts just a bit; look inside the rocers to make sure they are not varnished up and too tight. The point is to make sure the flow OUT of the shafts is what it should be; if anything is blocked up badly, then the pressure may rise excessively inside the shaft.
- Then, take the shafts' end plugs out, (get new ones at NAPA) clean the insides of the shafts then make sure the oiling holes to each rocker are clear, check shaft diameters everywhere, and check those bolt holes in the shafts for inside diameter. Lots to check there and that is non-invasive and easy to do to be sure that is all on spec and flowing right.

Sounds good, i will check that tomorrow. I feel like i should just pull the engine and be done with it.

Well I learned a lotta things from my dad, but one thing he used to say that ticked me off every time I heard it; "not necessarily".
So what's that got to do with anything? Well let's suppose for a sec that a previous builder crushed those pipes. Now lets suppose (not Jake here) a newbe comes along an unbolts them and takes 'em over to the parts washer, for a bath. I seen a few guys do just that; wash them fully assembled cuz they don't want to mix 'em up. Then a blowdry and off they go to the ready shelf. When assembly time comes,on they go, Now if they had been crushed, you might never have known it . Except that if it applies here,Jake here caught it, kinda by accident.
I'm not saying they're crushed, just that a couple of minutes with a mike would rule it out. And you just advised him to remove them for inspection( which is a good thing), so a quick miking would rule it out.
Oh how I came to hate "not necessarily". Now that he's gone, and I'm going soon, I remember those words fondly.

I get what youre saying and i tried my best along the way to clean everything out when it came to the rocker shafts and the rockers themselves, and ill check them tomorrow.


Jake